Francisco, A treaty between the United States and England? France? each of the German principalities?
Or a treaty among the states that became signatories to it? What treaty exists that binds a non-signatory? How could England be bound by the US Constitution? Conversely, what non-signatory can claim rights under a treaty? Can an English citizen claim rights under the US Constitution? On the other hand, if the norms of treaty interpretation (rather than norms of code interpretation or judicial opinion interpretation) are the best norms to apply to interpretation of the Constitution (assuming that there is no separate set of constitutional interpretation), that's a different notion. Or, it could be that norms of treaty interpretation should influence development of norms of constitutional interpretation? Clarification is most welcome. Thanks Jim Jim Maule Professor of Law, Villanova University School of Law Villanova PA 19085 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://vls.law.vill.edu/prof/maule President, TaxJEM Inc (computer assisted tax law instruction) (www.taxjem.com) Publisher, JEMBook Publishing Co. (www.jembook.com) Owner/Developer, TaxCruncherPro (www.taxcruncherpro.com) Maule Family Archivist & Genealogist (www.maulefamily.com) >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/07/03 02:04PM >>> Prof. Maltz: As an originalist, the answer to your question about what weight should be given to international law should be obvious. The Founding Fathers recognized the Constitution as a treaty, and as a treaty, the Constitution must be construed in conformity with the U.S.' customary international legal obligations. This is a basic tenet of international law. The whole discussion during the Constitutional Convention over how many states were required for "ratifying" (the very term used in international law in regard to treaties) demonstrates the Constitution's status as a treaty. The delegates to the Constitutional Convention (e.g., Madison, Hamilton) and Virginia Convention (e.g., Grayson and Madison) expressly recognized that the customary international law governing treaties also governed the dissolution of the Articles of Confederation and the establishment of the Constitution. Indeed, the delegates to the Constitutional Convention settled on the 9-state ratification rule for the Constitution in part because the approval of 9 states were required under the Articles for the U.S. to enter into a new treaty. I recognize that the view that the Constitution is a federal treaty may be provocative -- perhaps shockingly outrageous -- to some members of this listserv. However, the view that the Constitution is a treaty certainly is not a novel idea. This view was widely shared by the Founders. In fact, it appears that this view was non-controversial. The Founders operated on the assumption that the Constitution was a treaty. I challenge anyone to show me where any of the Founders thought that the Constitution was not a treaty. Francisco Forrest Martin > [Original Message] > From: Earl Maltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 8/7/2003 12:24:16 PM > Subject: Re: Just for laughs > > It seems to me that the issue is not whether one can cite international > sources, but rather what weight those sources should be given. Presumably, > those who argue that the courts should consult international sources > believe that they should be given considerable weight. I have some > problems with how that is supposed to work. > > At the outset, there are even some problems with the use of state laws for > determining the scope of Fourteenth Amendment protections. In the > abstract, there is no reason why New York should have any say in the law of > Texas. The argument seems to be that the laws of other states are evidence > of a prevailing national attitude--that is, they can be used to prove that > the law of Texas is completely out of step with prevailing national values. > > Now, leaving aside questions like which way does the fact that "only" > thirteen states agree with Texas cut?, how do international authorities > fit in? Obviously, if we agree that the law of Texas is completely out of > step with the values held generally in the United States, surely one would > not argue that Texas law is rehabilitated because the law of France is the > same as the law of Texas. Are we then to understand that the law of Texas > may be unconstitutional, even if not inconsistent with the norms generally > held in the United State, if it is inconsistent with the view of the wise > men of the EU? > > Makes me glad to be an originalist troglodyte. > > At 11:27 AM 8/7/2003 -0400, Gerry Neuman wrote: > > >The idea that U.S. legal culture can be hermetically sealed from foreign > >entanglements, that it is permissible to cite Dewey but not Kant, Rawls > >but not Habermas, maybe even Locke but not Mill, seems not only > >ill-advised but impracticable. > >The American Journal of International Law (I'm not sure whether to > >emphasize "American" or "International") plans to publish a short > >debate (Agora) on using international law in constitutional > >interpretation this fall. I hope that list members will consider reading > >it. > >-
