On Wednesday 08 October 2003 07:27 pm, Vedran Ljubovic wrote: > > > - Program installation pops-up during OS install > > [...] > > > That's a typical windows user. mdklinux is not > > windows and users installing > > linux know that (at least most of them do). > > It's the argument of "never change anything, make > people learn our ways instead". Not never change anything, never change anything that doesn't need to be changed. It's the argument of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > I believe that separating tasks and not putting > anything in the installation that isn't absolutely > necessary makes a system easier to understand. > > > I > > don't think we cater to > > windows users. I think we cater to users _coming > > from windows_ who a looking > > for something > > 1. different and > > 2. reliable > > But we can also learn some good things from Microsoft, > no? No. and i'm serious here. this isn't just some anti microsoft sentiment. I honestly can't think of one (good) thing we can learn from microsoft. Marketting comes to mind but then when you think of the crooked way in which they usually do it that just goes right through the window. > > > > - It presumes that users are too stupid to > > > > understand > > > > > the concept of a "software program" > > > > It's brilliant because it solves the problem you > > noted above about cryptic > > names. Who cares what the name is if you click on > > the internet group and when > > you boot see that you already have browsers, mail > > and IM clients (in > > > respective menu entries) installed. > > Please tell me, do you know anyone that doesn't have > an Internet connection? yes > So why not make the Internet > checkbox always selected then? And do you know anyone > that never in his life needed a word processor? yes > Anyone > that never played a media file? Not to mention that a > Linux box is useless without gcc.... and so on. i haven't used gcc since installing rc2 but most people do use Internet and Office amd Multimedia. > So > basically, why don't we just scrap the group selection > screen and just install the whole 3 CDs? ok that's sarcasm, i'm guessing
> This goes to prove that the present way is > meaningless. Not to you because you're used to either > install everything or go directly to detailed package > selection. You're not a newbie. but i used to be a newbie, and newbillogic-al loved those menus because it meant he didn't have to spend time sifting through packages that he had no clue what they did. > > > > How else do you explain the enormous popularity of > > > sites such as Download.com or Tucows? > > > > because they are central repositories. "your one > > stop shop for all your > > > software needs" we have those to, they're called > > mirrors :) and then of > > > course, sourceforge and freshmeat for those who must > > have it now. > > I'm not talking about the concept, I'm talking about > the interface. People obviously use it and obviously > can understand it. So why not copy? > > > you've got to be kidding me. you don't know if at > > least you'll be using > > > Internet or Office or Games or Desktop when you > > install? > > No. I'll use all of these, but not all office packages > (just one), not all games (just a few), not all net > apps (just one browser, one e-mail client)... > blahblah. You get my point. but did you know which one you wanted to use when you started w/ linux. I didn't so two choices were great. I tried koffice and it had a nice interface, but office compatibility sucked. So then i went to oo.o but it was slow as hell and ugly but it had great office compatibility. eventually i chose function over form. but if the two weren't installed i would think "oh, there's only one word processor and it doesn't work with word. this sucks i'll have to boot into windows to use word now." I had konq and mozilla, etc. having more than one choice allowed me to know what i wanted. once i got comfortable and reinstalled then i knew what i wanted and could pick and choose as i please. > > > And what's really hidden in madrake choices? Some > > devel packages, > > > compilers, > > games (ok these should be more accesible since > > people usually want > > > these), > > sysadmin stuff like traceroute. The people who use > > these w/ the > > > exception of > > games will have no trouble going into all packages to > > > find them > > Ok, I'll go top-down through packages and name those > that are full blown GUI applications and are not > listed in Mandrake Choices. Note that I've installed > all of the "groups", so there is a relatively small > amount of stuff that isn't installed: > - alsamixergui > - arpwatch > - avifile-player > - bumprace > - chromium-setup > - circuslinux > - eog > - ethereal > - fbtv > And so on. There is a lot more that I have installed > so they aren't listed. I really don't have time to > look through all of them, but I know I've given up > using Mandrake choices because it happens to often > that I can't find what I'm looking for. > if you select gnome package then eog comes w/ it. as for the others there isn't one thing in that list that i would typically use. And that's probably why they're not shown. the typical user goes looking for chromium the game not the setup utility, and etc > > So in essence you want there to be an "Idiot Mode"? > > I thought that > > > that's what > > the "Mandrake Choices" menu was (which i use) > > No. While hiding the above, Mdk Choices lists stuff > like (I'm going through packages from top-down): > - ami - this should be installed by keyboarddrake > - chinput - same > - drakconf - what's the point for uninstalling the > control panel? that would quickly render the OS > unusable to newbies > - fonts, fonts - should be installed by fontdrake > - galaxy - should be installed by a theme manager > - gnome-pim-conduits - a plugin to gnome-pim > - gurpmi - see drakconf > - kinput - see ami > - linneighborhood - ok > - mountloop - ok > - nmap-frontend - ok > - rpmdrake - see drakconf > - rxvt - ok > - rxvt-CJK - a plugin for rxvt > - taipeifonts - see fonts > - the rest of Gnome workstation - see ami > Only the packages marked with ok would stay. > > As you can see, of the present ~1000 packages, I would > leave visible not more than 50. Some of them would > enable additional 100 or so to be installed as options > (plugins). The rest would be hidden. That's IMO much > simpler and more intuitive then having 10 "package > groups". That's just personal preference. i don't think fonts should be installed by fontdrake. the rpm installation works just fine, galaxy should not be installed by a theme manager, but maybe a theme group could be created w/ gnome, flux and kde themes. as for ami and chinput, why should they be installed by keyboarddrake, is there even such a thing? the same goes w/ fonts. These are all rpms, rpmdrakes so purpose in life is to install those things and it should remain it and only it's purpose. Making a separate, keyboard and theme app only introduces more bug reports unduly. > > > i hate pop ups. doing this for every package with a > > plugin: xmms, gaim, licq > > xchat would become highly annoying at install time > > Like you install them three times a day. No but even those popups at install time when I initially install linux gives a bad impression and i don't want to deal with them that soon. there are enough pop-ups in the install system (liek the ones for dependencies). And lets not forget that they introduce potential bugs because if your popup window suddenly dies you can't go back to package installation. > > > > pop-ups (i.e. Kooka now support both gocr and > > ocrad, > > > > so a pop-up should appear with two appropriately > > named > > > > checkboxes) > > > > but who knows what the diff between gocr and ocrad > > > is? > > > I don't. > > I have a friend that calls me every time any wierd > pop-up appears on his Windows. But he is into graphics > and he knows the difference between I.R.I.S and Klara > OCR. > > Thats just it - they are the two programs for OCR :) > Tell me what's the diff between Konqueror and Mozilla, > but please no personal opinions! See? ;) konq is fast, moz is slow :) > > > why the proper capitalization and spacing does > > anyone here except > > > english > > professors really care? :p > > True, but having everything in lower case and no > spaces looks a bit dull, don't you think? :) bah, likes fine to me. throw some color in there if you wanna get rid of dullness for me :) > > > > but have very similar > > > appearance with the same categories, buttons, etc. > > > Also, in Package Removal checking a package will > > > uninstall it, but in Package Installation you need > > to > > > > UNcheck a package to uninstall it!? > > > > eh? no you do, it's check to install and uninstall this should read "it's check to install in rpmdrake and uninstall in rpmdrake-remove" > > Read it again. i still dont get it, if you uncheck in package installation you are cancelling the installation not uninstalling it which makes perfect sense > > btw i saw your screenie of the install app, words did not do it justice. however i'm still curios, what exactly will hold the screen shots > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! 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