Hi Archna Thanks for your reply.
Your justification of the continual usage of "MWEs"/"words" is based on history and shared understanding (from 09Feb2023: "since the term has been used for a long while, there is a bit of a shared understanding of this term, including about these stipulations"), both of these criteria are achievable with alternate formulations. Re "the category of items, of which idioms is a subset, has been referred to as multiwords for a long time": "MWE" does not have that long of a history --- what is the earliest use of "MWEs" that you have in your records? And even if terms have been used for a long while, it doesn't mean that we cannot change them for the better, esp. when they have been inappropriately adopted or found outdated. What objections do you have with "lexical expressions", for example? The issue/problem with "word" is that, aside from it not being necessary or sufficient in the study of language or in computing, there is also an implicit, shared understanding that it is arbitrary, redundant, and indeterminate. (This applies also to the notion of wordhood within one language.) The indeterminacy part is evident in your not having provided me with a definition of "words" thus far as well. Furthermore, as you confirmed earlier: "the notion of wordhood may not be applicable to every single language and in the same way", then how should "words" be robust enough for computational processing? Re emojis: here are some examples of emoji combinations that show a sense of idiosyncrasy when they (co-)occur: 🤩 for "star-struck" (from https://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html) Or from from https://www.elitedaily.com/lifestyle/funny-emoji-combinations-tiktok: 👉 👈 (feeling shy/simping) 🚪🏃♀️💨 (time to leave) 🍿🤏😯 (when drama is happening/when something is going down) 👁👄👁 (blank stare) 🕳👨🦯 (I didn't see anything) 👩🤏👩🦲 (wig snatched) 🐂💩 (bullsh*t) My concern is on "wordhood" in the "language space" (science/engineering/technology) in general, not just on lexical expressions. I do think, however, that SIGLEX could help play an important role in effecting some positive changes in this regard. ---------- Hi Kilian Let's suppose that what we have thus far known as "grammar" (the one that has been based on or related to "words" or "sentences", i.e. morphology/syntax (and some phonology)) can be decomposed into (sequential) ordering and linguistic attitudes/normativity [1]. I do think judgments/attitudes play a role in language as it exists in the social world and can affect, or even determine, how registers/styles etc. are defined, but I also think that there is more rigorous science of (the remaining aspects of) language possible if we were to separate such attitudes/prescriptivism from a more descriptive stance (e.g. in the direction of information sciences). Once we remove the attitudes/normativity part from the science of language, lexical and contextual information as well as function/use remain. The reason why I hesitated in referring to MWEs as "complex" is because (lexical) "complexity" can be broken down into vocabulary and length, with use/frequency accounting for pragmatic/functional one. Hence every expression (or any character string) is lexical. The element of idiosyncrasy/idiomaticity is really a pragmatic one (e.g. in the rarity/archaic-ness/uniqueness of the use of the expressions/segment/span or character n-grams). So "sing" can be seen as a lexical expression, just like "bing" or "ping". Let's not forget that (even according to traditional grammatical analyses) various linguistic effects can happen to expressions when they undergo frequent use over an extended period of time. E.g. "ping me" may be seen thus far as relatively more idiomatic than "sing me a song", but that's due to the former expression being more specialized, less general, or rarer in use. Also, e.g. in a conversation, if one said "sing me" and the other didn't quite catch the first bit of the phrase, they might ask "[s] or [p]?" or "'s' or 'p'?". And one can well imagine that if this becomes in use more frequently, "s" and "p" can be regarded as what we'd now interpret as "idiomatic". Hence "sing" does not have to be seen as a "single morpheme". [1] I have tweeted this before on 28Jan2023: https://twitter.com/adawan919/status/1619401653962297344?cxt=HHwWgMDS0a3OovksAAAA In a way, I am reinterpreting "(non)-compositionality" as normalization/frequency effects via the decomposed view of "grammar" above. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Hence, my proposal (not just for MWE workshop folks but perhaps for all who might be interested) would be: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n4QRn0CxbVMj6kbLWo-byT3S26ODJOjicU-ZYw7jRG0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n4QRn0CxbVMj6kbLWo-byT3S26ODJOjicU-ZYw7jRG0/edit?usp=sharing>* *Comments welcome. * Thanks and best Ada On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 2:01 PM Kilian Evang <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Ada, > > The problem I have with the term "expression" without further > qualification is that to my mind it includes any kind of linguistic sign, > including ones like "to pay a visit to my dear aunt Ruth" which can clearly > be interpreted compositionally. So I think we do have to specify "lexical" > to delineate what we are studying in the MWE community. "Lexical item" or, > sure, "lexical expression". Either would also include signs, of course. I > do also feel we have to add "complex" or similar, because otherwise it > includes single-morpheme lexical expressions like "sing". > > Cheers, > Kilian > > Am Fr., 10. Feb. 2023 um 23:32 Uhr schrieb Ada Wan <[email protected]>: > >> Hi Archna >> >> "Idioms"/"Idiomatic expressions" are established terms in the study of >> language [1], with a longer history than MWE [2]. "Fixed", e.g. in "fixed >> phrases", is mentioned in, inter alia, [3], which was the earliest cite >> from the earliest work on MWEs in the ACL Anthology [4]. If I understand >> correctly, "MWEs" was a term so coined in order to establish a practice >> based on "words" (if anyone should view this differently, please do correct >> me here). >> >> You're right, the task I suggested can be seen as orthogonal to >> distinguishing between lexical expressions or non-lexical expressions. I >> think it's important to document also the contexts surrounding expressions, >> instead of just picking expressions out and studying them in an isolated >> manner. It was just a suggestion for those who might be interested in >> building a multilingual parallel lexical database as well as those who >> might want to get a more holistic understanding of language while weaning >> oneself of "words" --- now that it's become even more obvious how >> superfluous the term/concept is. >> >> [1] See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phraseme >> [2] "Idiomatic expression" is just another formulation of "idiom" (see >> https://www.thefreedictionary.com/idiomatic+expression). >> According to Collins English Dictionary (accessed via >> https://www.thefreedictionary.com/idiom), "idiom" stems from the 16th >> century Latin idiōma, denoting "pecularity of language". >> [3] Nunberg, Geoffrey, Ivan A. Sag, and Thomas Wasow. 1994. Idioms. >> Language, 70:491–538. https://doi.org/10.2307/416483 >> (Many older references on "idioms" by linguists can be found therein.) >> [4] Ann Copestake, Fabre Lambeau, Aline Villavicencio, Francis Bond, >> Timothy Baldwin, Ivan A. Sag, and Dan Flickinger. 2002. Multiword >> expressions: linguistic precision and reusability. In Proceedings of the >> Third International Conference on Language Resources and Evaluation >> (LREC’02), Las Palmas, Canary Islands - Spain. European Language Resources >> Association (ELRA). >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Hi Kilian >> >> Sorry about my oversight on "item". I do think "item" could be better >> than "term" in this case, but it does carry a sense of "a single element", >> a more discrete "singleton". It's ok to combine it with "complex" to >> mitigate the sense of "singleton", but then "complex" as you suggested is >> dependent on morphology, which can be problematic. >> >> Re "lexical": sure. (I think there have been so many different >> views/traditions/conventions among linguists and computational linguists in >> the past, we don't necessarily have to agree on how we or our >> definitions/methods might differ or might have differed, as long as we have >> the same goal now?) >> >> One argument for "expressions" would be that they could include a sign >> (e.g. hand sign in motion). >> >> So how about updating "MWEs" to: >> i. "lexical expressions", or >> ii. "lexical expressions (of one character or more when written)*", or >> iii. [i] or [ii] without "lexical", or >> iv. others? >> >> * I'm trying to incorporate how expressions with emojis would/should be >> treated too. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> What do you all think? >> >> Thanks and best >> Ada >> >> On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:58 AM Kilian Evang via Corpora < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Forwarded message from Archna below >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>> Von: Archna Bhatia <[email protected]> >>> Date: Do., 9. Feb. 2023 um 19:58 Uhr >>> Subject: Re: [Corpora-List] Deadline extension: 19th Workshop on >>> Multiword Expressions (MWE 2023) >>> To: Ada Wan <[email protected]>, kilian Evang <[email protected]> >>> Cc: Mike Scott <[email protected]>, [email protected] < >>> [email protected]>, [email protected] < >>> [email protected]> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Ada. I think using the terms “fixed” and “idiomatic” make the >>> category appear more restrictive, and would need qualifications such as >>> “fixed” is a relative term here, etc. With “multiwords/multiword >>> expressions” also, there are stipulations (the notion of wordhood may not >>> be applicable to every single language and in the same way) but since the >>> term has been used for a long while, there is a bit of a shared >>> understanding of this term, including about these stipulations. I am open >>> to better terminology. Using just “expressions”, however, seems too vague >>> and loses some generalizations about the idiosyncrasies that "multiword >>> expressions” demonstrate. Every expression in not the same, “multiword >>> expressions” show characteristics different from other expressions. I >>> understand there is some fluidity also there when trying to distinguish >>> between multiwords and non multiword expressions. >>> >>> There are so many angles that one could look at language from. I don’t >>> see anything wrong with the view that studies expressions covering all >>> aspects as you suggest without distinguishing between expressions based on >>> notions of wordhood. The task you suggest will help in developing >>> understanding about language and how languages are similar or different and >>> how they are used. I don’t think it disqualifies efforts that distinguish >>> between “multiword expressions” and non-multiword expressions though, and >>> the idiosyncrasies are not limited to morphology/syntax, idiosyncrasies are >>> found in other linguistic aspects too when characterizing "multiword >>> expressions”. >>> >>> ~ Archna >>> >>> On Feb 9, 2023, at 11:17 AM, Ada Wan <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Archna, hi Kilian, hi all >>> >>> Thanks for your replies. >>> >>> TLDR on my part: I'd be fine going with "expressions" (instead of >>> "fixed/idiomatic expressions"). Neither "word" nor "morphology/syntax" >>> (apart from the ordering of elements and/or sequential patterns) is >>> necessary in the analyses of such. >>> >>> ----- >>> >>> More specifically: >>> >>> [@Archna] Re "fixed/idiomatic expressions": I don't think it matters >>> much whether they are "fixed" or "idiomatic". A "fixed expression" is one >>> that is usually more impervious to (lexical) change. One can measure this >>> quality in a longitudinal study, e.g. in relation to other aspects of >>> language change etc.. Re how "fixed" is "fixed": it's relative, much like >>> many other aspects of language studies. By "idiomatic", one could mean that >>> there is an element of idiosyncrasy (as "idiom"/"idioma"). >>> >>> The message that I am trying to get across is that "word" is a >>> superflous category in the study of language. Would you mind please >>> justifying why you need "words"? >>> >>> The same goes for morphology, actually. In essence, morphological >>> analyses involve selective decomposition, not decomposition of all >>> decomposable units. Hence if one is only accounting for variations within >>> an expression as a ((sub-)character) sequence involving "morphemes" >>> (assuming definable rigorously) and discounting the changes in other parts >>> of the sequence, that would be an incomplete analysis of the expression. >>> Instead, one can just refer to expressions as "expressions", as e.g. >>> sequences/strings of various lengths/vocabs in (sub-)characters --- such an >>> account is also more flexible and accommodating to diverse >>> languages/registers/modalities. >>> >>> A study of "expressions" can cover all other aspects --- not just >>> lexical but also functional ones. One doesn't need to incorporate/impose >>> any ad hoc notions of "wordhood" in these studies. >>> >>> Suggestion: I believe there are many more interesting tasks in this >>> area, instead of trying to find/define "words" within expressions, or to >>> "parse" them according to some structuralist assumptions (i.e. >>> morphologically/syntactically). For example, the community could start >>> (some multi-year project) building an international multilingual parallel >>> (note: not everything would be parallelizable) database of all expressions >>> and terminologies ever existed with contextual (historical/cultural/social) >>> information and start verifying their sources and status of current use. >>> (Just be aware, though, that one is not reinforcing values that shouldn't >>> be further emphasized / transfered to posterity --- as an ethical >>> consideration. So if something is in the grey area now, document clearly >>> what the current attitudes towards a certain value are, so posterity can >>> look back and evaluate with respect to their point of view.) >>> >>> Counter questions to Archna: >>> What are the motivations behind your suggestion to access/interpret >>> language using "words"? How do you define "words" and justify the >>> sufficiency/necessity of morphology/syntax in relation to the study of >>> these expressions, esp. when the morphological decomposition of these >>> expressions is arbitrary and helps little (or not at all) with explanation >>> or prediction? >>> >>> Re "complex lexical terms", @Kilian: I'm just wondering what kind of >>> terms that would be considered "terms" that wouldn't be considered lexical >>> (I was tempted to add "lexical" to "expressions" as well, but thought that >>> might be a bit redundant)? It depends on how one defines "terms", of >>> course. And how "complex" are expressions really? They are just more >>> calcified units after all, aren't they? (Why do we/some always seem to want >>> to add the term "complex" to everything? Things that aren't "complex" are >>> also worthy of studying!) >>> >>> Curious what you think... >>> >>> Thanks and best >>> Ada >>> >>> Why I'm advocating #noWords: >>> Fairness in Representation for Multilingual NLP: Insights from >>> Controlled Experiments on Conditional Language Modeling >>> https://openreview.net/forum?id=-llS6TiOew >>> >>> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fopenreview.net%2Fforum%3Fid%3D-llS6TiOew&data=05%7C01%7Cabhatia%40ihmc.org%7C3d437044e42f42c2c61408db0ab92ccb%7C2b38115bebad4aba9ea3b3779d8f4f43%7C1%7C0%7C638115562691707319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jea7YNI7295cJ2CY0jwxrsjID7DcDqerqI3IQxj9hUc%3D&reserved=0> >>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eKbhdZkPJ0HgU1RsGXGFBPGameWIVdt9/view >>> >>> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F1eKbhdZkPJ0HgU1RsGXGFBPGameWIVdt9%2Fview&data=05%7C01%7Cabhatia%40ihmc.org%7C3d437044e42f42c2c61408db0ab92ccb%7C2b38115bebad4aba9ea3b3779d8f4f43%7C1%7C0%7C638115562691707319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZZ%2F8v%2FsH6RRAlIxLYsG1tYvFOFaTZFzVtCfvsQ8ZcuY%3D&reserved=0> >>> (It took me a while for everything to sink in.) >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 3:27 PM Mike Scott via Corpora < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I must say I'm perfectly happy with "multi-word expression", or >>>> "multi-word unit". >>>> >>>> I feel sympathy with Archna's post (and incidentally wish Archna didn't >>>> have to go through a friend!) >>>> Cheers -- Mike >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Mike Scottlexically.net >>>> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flexically.net%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cabhatia%40ihmc.org%7C3d437044e42f42c2c61408db0ab92ccb%7C2b38115bebad4aba9ea3b3779d8f4f43%7C1%7C0%7C638115562691707319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lnpEPfv%2B4UmB1e0xVkC4hsIs%2B9GqwDnSzzMpwiFWZHw%3D&reserved=0> >>>> Lexical Analysis Software and Aston University >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Corpora mailing list -- [email protected] >>>> https://list.elra.info/mailman3/postorius/lists/corpora.list.elra.info/ >>>> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.elra.info%2Fmailman3%2Fpostorius%2Flists%2Fcorpora.list.elra.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cabhatia%40ihmc.org%7C3d437044e42f42c2c61408db0ab92ccb%7C2b38115bebad4aba9ea3b3779d8f4f43%7C1%7C0%7C638115562691707319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=78A%2BL24tQ0GBhZ3lAGipq9tLPZU%2FmydmGBGX1yE4BSA%3D&reserved=0> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "MWE Workshop 2023 Organizers" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/mweworkshop2023/CAB7Mis_GSyFjZOVw_XWp431VMJJBo0BnPqjFsqqTP_sEE58Ezw%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Fmweworkshop2023%2FCAB7Mis_GSyFjZOVw_XWp431VMJJBo0BnPqjFsqqTP_sEE58Ezw%2540mail.gmail.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=05%7C01%7Cabhatia%40ihmc.org%7C3d437044e42f42c2c61408db0ab92ccb%7C2b38115bebad4aba9ea3b3779d8f4f43%7C1%7C0%7C638115562691707319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FX%2BoXH1j9XL5X0tJuqc%2BfKdFkuugawZvrtzdXNUG2%2FA%3D&reserved=0> >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Foptout&data=05%7C01%7Cabhatia%40ihmc.org%7C3d437044e42f42c2c61408db0ab92ccb%7C2b38115bebad4aba9ea3b3779d8f4f43%7C1%7C0%7C638115562691707319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1SGOAvFNmKwsKKOx6Kc%2Fm1wHzDbm%2F4xiEge3RY5etrE%3D&reserved=0> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Archna Bhatia, Ph.D. >>> Research Scientist, Institute for Human & Machine Cognition >>> 15 SE Osceola Ave, Ocala, FL 34471 >>> (352) 387-3061 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Corpora mailing list -- [email protected] >>> https://list.elra.info/mailman3/postorius/lists/corpora.list.elra.info/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> >>
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