Thank you Elwyn. Absolutely fascinating. Dorothy Sent from my iPad
> On 22/06/2020, at 5:56 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList > <cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > > Marion, > > > > I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a > hundred pages. > > > > One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland > 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many > causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that > there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in > 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely > certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell > also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently > the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know > these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential > increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. > > > > The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs > surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and > Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged > marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by > their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The > Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of > the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” > (page 55). > > > > But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each > other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that > marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness > of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people > towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions > and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry > gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early > marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57). > > > > Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs. > > > > Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry > between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in > Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down. So couples eloped to Portpatrick > to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16, > and without parental consent. (In England and Ireland parental consent was > required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off > to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between > England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to > get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland. > Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland, > going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think > of any other reason for marrying there: > > > > http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0 > > > > > > The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group. I did a course at Queens > University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The > lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and > the Ulster – Scots. In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the > Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such > as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse > origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason > was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers > to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring > any women with them. If they needed women then the answer was usually a > bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of > this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly > did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse > identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of > men and women. They tended to marry each other and kept their separate > identity. They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism > which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland > in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for > all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster – > Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each > other. (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in > Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be > found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity > that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster- > Scots, rather than Irish. > > > > You ask about illegitimacy and the churches attitude. There was plenty of > illegitimacy around. One study I read suggested that about 1% of births > were illegitimate in the mid 1800s. There were local exceptions especially > if there was a workhouse in the area, and workhouse births distorted the > figures: > > > > http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/a-sexual-revolution-in-the-west-of-ireland/ > > > > Before the Poor Law was introduced c 1840, the churches were responsible > for supporting the poor in their congregations. Consequently they took a > great interest in illegitimate children because they might have to support > them financially. Presbyterians usually called a woman with an illegitimate > child up before the Kirk Session and asked her who the father was. If she > revealed that, he too was summoned and interviewed. He was put under > pressure to support the child, and to marry the woman if she was willing. > They > had to admit their sins in front of the congregation (ante-nuptial > fornication), and were denied Communion for a while. Sometimes they had to > sit separately from the rest of the congregation. Records of these > examinations can be found in the Kirk Session minutes where they survive. > (Usually in PRONI). Other denominations also pursued errant fathers though > – in my opinion - not always with the same determination as Presbyterians. > > > > You can spot some illegitimate children in the 1901 & 1911 censuses where > they have been “adopted” by the grandparents. They appear as the apparent > extra son or daughter of a woman in her 60s, so the family were evidently > often doing their best to reduce the stigma. > > > > In my own family I have an ancestor who had 2 illegitimate children over a > 3 year period around 1825. The Kirk Session minutes show that the alleged > father readily agreed he was the father of the first and paid up, but he > said he was not the father of the second and refused to pay, so the church > paid for that child for a while. Eventually 1 child died. Then the mother > was arrested for burglary and theft. (She stole a bundle of clothes because > she was living rough and destitute). She was taken into custody and > eventually transported. Her remaining son was looked after by her married > sister. So the family sort of rallied round in some cases, I would say. > > > > > > > > Elwyn > > On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 13:11, Marion via CoTyroneList < > cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > >> Hello all, >> I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about >> marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster >> Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the >> bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic >> approaches very different? >> Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society >> at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? >> Thank you in advance for your help ! >> Regards Marion Shephard >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >> Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com >> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >> > _______________________________________________ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY _______________________________________________ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
