>
>No inevestigation , no right to speak!(Mao) Do us a favor ...read
>"Dialectical & Historical Materialism" Lenin also "Four Essays In
>Philosophy" by Mao "The Weapon of Theory" Cabral
Thanks for the recommendations Amiri. If I'm given any expectation that you
would read something EYE would recommend, I'll return the favor.
However as far as right to speak goes, I retain that honor and priviledge,
inalienable and subject to hardly anyone's approval, thank you very much.
(unless of course Mao somehow manages to obtain a comoderator position on
Crashlist.)
Tom
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Tom Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 5:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [CrashList] Self Determination- Support It!
>
>
> > Julien writes:
> >
> > >Marxists of course subscribe to a
> > >kind of crude economic determinism which makes them often see economic
> > >things as more important than they are (I'm going to be flamed for this
> > >gross
> > >oversimplification :-).
> >
> > Ahh,... just remind your detractors that you were talking "baby talk" to
>me,
> > in order to get me to understand what seems so obvious to them. Thanks
>for
> > your patience in translating the concepts into gross oversimplifications
>so
> > that you could share them with me.
> >
> > It was also written and responded to:
> >
> > >U.S. activists must keep the
> > > >government out of the political affairs of other people. The U. S.
> > > >government clearly means no good.
> >
> > Of course from everyone's standpoint except the US, it seems fairly
>clear
> > that our "government clearly means no good." I would not dispute a large
> > amount of our policy being catagorized that way. <--- please note I said
> > that, ... please.
> >
> > However, those who demand the US out and back to our 200 years of
>isolation
> > must provide SOME intellectual honesty by presenting a more constructive
> > pathway that plugs the "vacuum" left by keeping US out of "the political
> > affairs of other people." At the moment there is no realistic proposal
>on
> > the table, beyond the vague hope that some socialist, altruistic force
>will
> > magically appear to solve the problems left over from the legacy of the
>20th
> > Century,(regardless of who created those problems: US idiots, Global
> > Capitalists, butchering second & third-world thugs, somnambulent
> > governments, or fanatic fundamentalist zealots) .
> >
> > I am going to risk a bit of "honesty" here, to see if we can move the
>list
> > forward. I fully expect ONLY flames, namecalling, and some clever ways
>of
> > turning "baby talk", and "naive" back against me, as well as some
>acerbic
> > observations about my non-marxist parentage. Go ahead if you must, I am
> > prepared.
> >
> > From my personal perspective(<--- please note I said "personal" there.)
>here
> > are some factors that stand in the way of keeping US out of "the
>political
> > affairs of other people.":
> >
> > 1) It is true enough that I am selfish enough to want to be in control
> > rather than trusting someone else to be. I see no more trustworthy
>persons
> > on the horizon, although I am willing to examine the cause of anyone who
>is
> > willing to step forward and ask for that control. I do NOT see that
> > willingness to examine other causes than their own from many other
>Crashlist
> > members at the moment.
> >
> > The idea of there being NO ONE in control is too mature for any of us as
> > yet. Later ... maybe, after the Crash has demonstrated the folly of my
> > position as well as those of others in opposition. (Let us try to
>remember
> > that a certain amount of our attention should be given to the "Crash" in
> > crashlist.)
> >
> > 2)Not ALL US policy is based upon capitalism, or even imperialism.
>Unless
> > this is understood, there is little hope of a realistic understanding of
> > alternatives. As bad as many of you hate it, we still tend to act
> > occasionally from a sense of morality, as skewed and misapprehended as
>it
> > seems. The most common mistake when looking at US foriegn policy from
> > outside is to overlook that factor and attribute darker, capitalistic
> > motives everywhere, even where they do not exist, although
> > capitalists/imperialists may benefit from those policies.
> >
> > 3)In the US we no longer trust this "Go away and leave us alone"
> > prescription for Europeans dealing with global issues that begin in
>Europe
> > or are so provoked in asia. Simply ... we have been burned too many
>times
>by
> > doing so. The lessons we have drawn from the 20th century make us think
> > presently that to withdraw from that particular world stage leads to
>mass
> > graves, and it saddens us to keep sending forensic teams in to verify
>that
> > the unmarked graves contain young innocents murdered simply for their
> > genetic heritage. (It is allowable to say "Poor naive Americans, what do
>we
> > care for their sadness?" as long as you realize that our retaliation to
>that
> > cosmopolitain viewpoint is measured in smart-bombs, regardless of
> > justification.) It only reinforces our resolve to hear others deny the
> > existence of the graves or attempt to justify them. It does absolutely
>no
> > good to point out either the irrationality or the cognitive dissonance
>of
> > our viewpoint.
> >
> > Detractors may say this is me simply falling into line with the Zionist
> > "Never Again" philosophy, but mine is a more fundamental objection. It
>is
> > simply true on the strategic/tactical levels that SOMEONE will fill the
> > vacuum, at at the moment our experience of the last century leads us to
> > believe in the haphazard collective security agreements of NATO and the
>UN
> > -- rather than any other alternative or any other SOMEONE. Staying out
>of
> > the "political affairs of other people" means that EVERYONE must do so,
>and
> > this will never happen. It is our hubris that we think we can do it
>better.
> > It is YOURS that you ignore that reality must creep into the conduct of
> > nations from time to time. ALL OF US ARE AT FAULT THAT WE FIND LITTLE
>COMMON
> > GROUND TO COOPERATE.
> >
> > If we wish to examine the crash, understand it, and perhaps move
>together
>to
> > mitigate its effects, we must find that commonality here on the list,
>don't
> > you think?
> >
> > If any of you simply wish to bash me for being an uneducated
> > swallower-of-imperialist-propaganda, that moves the list's discussion
>not
> > one cm in any direction except toward hostility. Better to deal with the
> > argument, not the name-calling, please. Return the respect I give
>others.
> >
> > However, feel free to flame away. ;-)
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
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