>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/05/00 01:57PM >>>
> CB: Thanks for hanging in there. I urge you to read some of the basic
texts of Marxism and Marxist political economy - _The Manifesto of the
Communist Party_, first chapters of _Capital_, _Value, Price and Profit_,
_The Teachings of Karl Marx_ by Lenin, in conjunction with the presentations
on this list, which are probably not enough in themselves to fully
understand the ideas.
>
Tom:
Apparently the volumes aren't either, since I have read them (and re-read
parts since joining Crashlist <g>). You do better, CB, to point to the
specific passages where you think Marx addresses the issues and ideas of
enviromental crisis. (You can start with Hanson, Naess, and maybe Hardin if
you need to do any reading about this end of the issue. Mark's pretty good
too.)
(((((((((((((((((
CB: The part of the environmental crisis that Marx addresses is key role of the mad
dash for surplus-value in it.
The specific, climatic and ecological processes of the year 2000, Marx doesn't
discuss, if that is what you are looking for. There is a literature, including the
essays of Mark Jones, as you say, that is developing finding general statements on
ecology from Marx. One of the better ecological warnings is in a statement by Engels,
which I can't find right, now, but neither addressed specific environmental
developments that have only come about long after they were dead.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that the process of pursuing
surplus-value, certainly in the books I listed, which I therefore assume you read , is
not a key factor in today's environmental crisis ? That you don't get the theory on
pursuit of surplus-value ? What ?
((((((((((((
Question: Do you remember where Marx exhibits a perception of the need for
population control?
((((((((((((
CB: No.
Main thing relevant to environmental crisis that Marx exhibits a perception of the
need for is overthrowing the drive for maximum profit as the number one driving force
of human society.
((((((((((
CB:
> In a few words, the Marxist theory addresses the problem of the
environmental crisis and oil crunch by its demonstration that capitalism's
first law is the production of surplus-value, and that this is pursued to
the "ends of the earth", literally and insanely, regardless of even the fact
that it harms our living environment to the extent of catastrophic crisis.
Marxism is unique in teaching that the very most important premise to
stopping the problem of human generated environmental crisis is ending
capitalism, i.e. slaying the God , Surplus-Value.
Tom:
Well, this supports Tahir's Point #1 and speaks to one of my objections of
that point. You see, the environmental crisis is not so neatly sewn up into
blaming capitalism for all the sins of 6 billion people eating the planet.
The idea of replacing (watch it, ... here comes the "S" word) sustainability
with exploitation is a far older "premise" than capitalism. (You can read
Daniel Quinn for a profound but simplistic overview of this) The de-linkage
of man from perceptions of the consequences of exploiting nature is embedded
into our cultures so deeply that it taints marxism as well as other economic
philosophies. Much of the world practices neither capitalism nor communism
in its daily activity, yet precipitates "human generated environmental
crisis" by routinely ignoring the consequences of economic activity and
attempting to exploit and control the biosystem. (think of Masai overgrazing
their patures to feed hungry children, think of the world's non-response to
3 million AIDS orphans in subsahara Africa)
(((((((((((((((((
CB: If I follow you, you seem to be saying that pre- and non- capitalist forms of
society have generated and generate environmental crisis. So, focussing on
capitalism's role in generating environmental crisis is inadequate.
First, even if other forms of society cause environmental crisis, capitalism is
conquering the whole world today, so focusing on the capitalist mechanism for causing
enviro crisis addresses some of the cause (the main one ) of enviro crisis TODAY.
Ergo, you do have some of the answer you seek from Marxist analysis of capitalism
(even if you don't have all of your answer). So, your statements to the effect that
reading the above books doesn't give you anything addressing today's enviro crisis is
not entirely accurate.
Second, given the dominance of capitalism over Masai type pastoralism in the world
economies today ( we're talking overfuckingwhelming dominance here), the explanations
of capitalist cause of enviro crisis are a million times more important than
explanations of Masai type pastoralist cause of enviro crisis.
Third, given all the environmental crises that did NOT take place in the course of
human history during non-capitalists modes of production, you seem to be leaving out
the evidence that many of those modes were not ecologically unwise. And it is not at
all clear or demonstrated by you or the evidence of human ecological history that all
cultures have de-linked
humans from perceptions of the consequences of exploiting nature, as you put it. Not
to mention that many cultures explicitly express ecologically consciousness.
By the way, see _Man In Adaptation: The Cultural Past_ , edited by Yehudi Cohen, which
presents evidence of ecological consciousness and practice in many human societies
throughout history.
(((((((((((((((
The above in /no way/ excuses the mega-rape of the planet by global
capitalism. (I agree it must go!) But if capitalism went away today, our
civilization would still be on the road to the abyss, albeit at a slower
speed. (think of the current killing of the last primates in Africa for
"bushmeat")
(((((((((((((((
CB: Since, the rate of capitalist destruction is many times bigger than the slower
ones, we can concentrate all our efforts on capitalism right now, and cross that
bridge when we come to it , if we can get to it.
Capitalism has destroyed most indigenous culture, so some of what you describe as
non-capitalist, is actually capitalist dominated and distorted.
((((((((((((((
Once the Surplus-Value God is slain, how do we go about sustaining
"ordinary" value among 6 billion hungry souls?
(((((((((((((((
CB: Socialist organization of society has already given a good indication that it can
feed everybody by for example, ending hunger in China. The Soviet Union did not fail
to feed everybody or provide ordinary values for everybody. It's failure was do more
to being militarily bludgeoned by imperialism, from the Cordon Sanitaire , to the Nazi
invasion to the Cold War.
((((((((((((
CB:
> Marxism also has a theory of the periodic economic crisis, boom-bust cycle
of capitalism. It is rather complicated, requiring some of the reading
mentioned above. I will try to sketch it out if you want, but the
"bottomline" is that economic crisis is linked to the exploitation of
workers, because ultimately they are the mass of consumers , and when
exploited , they don't have enough money to buy everything , or most of
what, is produced. This causes profits to fall, and the capitalists start
laying people off.
((((((((((((((
Well, the next time the cycle "busts" due to oil depletion, there won't be
much of a boom following. If you wish to detail where you think Marx's
theory will hold past the Hubbert Peak, I will read your very carefully and
eagerly, and welcome your response. It's the kind of thing we want to see on
Crashlist. It may not be as complicated as you think, .. and I have done
some of the reading mentioned above.
(((((((((((((((
CB: The Marxist theory of booms and busts does not claim that any boom would follow
running out of a fundamental energy resource like oil . I thought you were talking
about an ordinary economic crisis.
How can I say this. The fact that the prospect of running out of oil creates a new
type of crisis not addressed by the Marxist theory of cyclical economic crisis does
not mean that Marxism does not in its other respects provide a critical understanding
for what must be done to save the world from depletion of oil. Marxism or the like is
the only theory sufficiently critical and honest about capitalism to let us know that
capitalism will sacrifice the species in its pursuit of surplus value. The fact that
more than this classical Marxism is needed to solve the depletion of energy problems
that remain even for a society that stops furiously using oil indifferent to the
depletion problem( because it is no longer controlled by the pursuit of surplus-value
) doesn't mean that Marxism doesn't solve part of the problem - the specifically
capitalist generated aspect of the problem. There is no reason for you to poo poo
this partial solution, because we don't have the whole solutoin yet. There is no
reason to say Marxism doesn't help with the environmental crisis at all.
((((((((((((((
You see, it's not just that people don't have "enough money to buy
everything" Fresh air, pure water, available fish, clean land, -- and the
byproducts derived from them -- are not as readily available to be bought,
even if the mass of consumers have bulging pockets. Why? Because the
original exploited worker who produced the value in those goods seems not to
be forthcoming by producing more under our current economic systems, be they
marxist, capitalist or totalitarian. There's your worldwide revolution ...
happening today.
BTW, thanks very much, Charles for taking my questions seriously enough to
pursue them fairly. I know that you run the risk of being attacked any time
you assert that "Marx said .." or present your interpretation of one of his
theories.
Tom
(off to read Mark's Freeman website)
"If everywhere the survival of "just one more" species continues to be held
in balance with some local economic advantage, we'll have more and more of
what we already had. Conservation of biodiversity is in the interests of
everyone." -- Julien Pierrehumbert
_______________________________________________
Crashlist resources: http://website.lineone.net/~resource_base
To change your options or unsubscribe go to:
http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/crashlist
_______________________________________________
Crashlist resources: http://website.lineone.net/~resource_base
To change your options or unsubscribe go to:
http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/crashlist
