> Tom your tireless anti-marxism is in fact becoming tiresome
> because it is becoming an obvious obsession with you that
> ignores that there are a lot of interesting things going on
> on this list.
Yes, Tahir, I quite agree. Yet I am stuck with disagreeing with marxist
positions. I can capitulate and cease to post, I can outline my position and
simply not respond to objections to it, or I can attempt to give back as
good as was/is given to me. The latter tactic seeming no longer to be
fruitful, I will try to clean up my act. <---------- serious statement, not
sarcastic, please accept it in good faith.
Further points below this:
>
[Tom]> I as yet have seen no comprehension in the marxist
> positions of the role
> of nature as arbiter ...........
{Tahir] Why don't you back this up by reading the following that I
> posted to this list some time ago and tell me how it
> supports your above point (please be specific):
Having never seen this before, I am forced at the outset to eat my words.
You indeed spoke to the issue. Why has no one responded lately with this
side of the issue? I knew it was there, but it seems so heavily discounted
and ignored by marxists on the list that I am justified in holding their
feet to the fire this last few days. Allow that nothing of this level of
posts regarding the environmental issue has appeared on Crashlist since I
joined, and that the archives were unavailable to me. You will have to
admit, however, that even *this* post of yours is but tangential to the
discussion of the roll of nature as arbiter.
Is it okay to bypass the "petulant" comment and the words to hallyx?
Okay, onward:
> Now Tom, just get used to the fact that marxism is not going
> to go away.
hee hee, this is an article of faith Tahir, not scientific. We ALL might go
away, and despite Mark's assertion "My Fate is not theirs", in the next
50-100 years all these ideologies may be replaced. Our fates are entwined.
But I realize for solidarity and to put me in my place, you must say what
you have said.
One of the reasons is that it does tell us some
> of the things we need to do if we are going to save the
> world from the current insanity. This is a political
> project, one which you are SILENT about. Come out clearly
> Tom, where do you stand on the bourgeois state?
1) I was silent. Mostly I was concentrating on the threads pertaining to
bio-issues. I also am silent on much of the Serbian issue, even though I
have life-long friends there.
2) I reject the terminology "bourgeois state" because I think that it is
over-simplistic and presents a kind of dichotomy which does not exist in
reality. There is so much baggage associated with so many marxist AND
capitalist/ "bourgeois" terms that it makes it a practical impossibility for
a non-marxist to enter such a discussion with marxists without invoking
screams of hostility from both sides. I tire too much of the deliberate
witholding of acceptation by marxist posters that I have not stated a
position. However:
3) As Hallyx stated: "the destruction of capitalism ... is assured without
you're having to lift a finger."
4) The issue at hand is not stopping the crash, that is impossible. But
rather the issue is limiting the response of our culture -- capitalist,
marxist, fascist and non-aligned -- to destructive overreaction to the
sudden perception of the abyss.
> Do you think it can solve our problems or not? You know how many times
> I've raised this, so I don't need to repeat all the details
> of the question. Why don't you just answer it?
> Tahir
Sorry Tahir, I in fact DON'T know how many time you have raised this issue
before your post the other day. Either by ignoring a thread where you may
have said it, or you having said it in a way that I misunderstood, I have
not seen this issue discussed by you..
I in fact have spoken to the "bourgeois state" issue more than once on
Crashlist, but for the record, here goes again:
1) It matters VERY LITTLE which methodology you choose, it is the *attitude*
that matters. One may drive the Cadillac of capitalism toward a good end, or
the (Is it Moskva? that big Russian limo?) big russian limo of marxism on
toward a bad goal. It is the direction and the skill in driving that counts.
Yes, I understand that Marx would disagree. Where do I stand? He is wrong.
(I hope this doesn't surprise you <g>) Think about the implications of :
"What is non-capitalist industry, science and technology? We have never
experienced these, just as none of us has ever lived outside of capitalism
in any other way."
2) The "bourgeois state" has some things to offer in solving our problems.
As long as one looks at capitalism as a single monolithic evil -- much as
Reagan saw the" evil empire" -- one cannot perceive any positive worth that
might lie within. Capitalism is not the same as global imperialist
capitalism, nor is republican democracy the same as state democracy or
fascism. The "bourgeois state" seems to be better skilled at developing and
implementing technology, than either socialist-marxist states or
totalitarian ones. If you assert that technology and science can assist in
"saving us" you should examine this aspect. There are other things within
what you perceive as the monolith of capitalism that are positive; but,
please Tahir, do NOT assume that by my saying so I am defending the status
quo nor 100% of the capitalist culture 100% of the time.
Forgive me for misunderstanding the ettiquette of this list, I thought there
was more separation between threads and that attacking marxists for
environmental denial and avoidance of any deeper discussion of bio-issues
than uninformed hostility was permitted. Just as I admonish you to look
beyond a monolithic viewpoint of capitalism, I do in fact try to look at the
positive aspects of marxism. I am learning more every day.
So
What can marixsm do to help mitigate the destructive reaction of all
govenrnments to the sudden perception of the abyss?
Tom
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