Look, I'm not going to respond to the rancor any more, I wasn't broadcasting
any, and I didn't REALLY deserve the vitriol you just posted.
If you are serious about wanting to hear a proposal from me, you could back
off and try reading my last coupla posts with a bit less animosity.
In fact I proposed:
1) a switch to "localism"
2) adopting a "biocentric" attitude.
3) adopting a social, economic and political policy to divert, delay, and
stop "them" on specific issues rather than tilting at the windmill of
destroying the capitalist system wholesale; and rather than requiring a
communist revolution as a prerequsite to any action at all to support the
biosphere.
That, my friend, as general as it is, is MORE of a set of proposals than
those you call the "Marxies" have presented here on crashlist in the last 6
months.
You end your post with this wisdom:
"Any reversal at all presupposes revolution. Many so-called intellectuals
(and I'm not anti-intellectual, by any means) need to revist and think about
the meaning of a simple word: necessity. "
I will temporarily accept that "reversal" is the issue. I disagree with
your absolute assertion that it requires revolution, but that should not be
a surprise nor held against me.
so -- and this will be the last time I will ask -- (the crowd cheers
again!!) --
We have until 2035 to provide the aforementioned "reversal." If you insist
upon revolution, yours must be in place by 2035.
What do YOU propose? ("You" meaning any of you "marxies")
What do you propose that will lead to slowing anthropogenic heating by 2035?
What do you propose that will lead to ending population overshoot by 2035?
OR ... what do you propose that will lead to mitigating the consequences of
those threats after 2035?
You have my propositions above, which indeed will lead to some solutions for
some communities by 2035. and if you wish more detail you can search the
archives.
What do you prescribe as "necessity"?
If those issues are too big for you, try even this one:
What do you propose that will make any positive difference to Brother
Nestor's rainforest and the first peoples who inhabit it ... before it and
they are lost?
C'mon , Now is the time.
I say it to you all once again:
put up or shut up.
(said with only a minimum amont of rancor in the face of all that vitriol.)
Here, I will say it nicely:
What do you propose that will do anything to aid the biosphere before it is
too late? or that will do anything to salvage some of humanity and/or
civilization after it is too late?
thanks, ... and I promise not to respond with any of the vitriol which is
so prevalent lately.
Try it again, please.
tom
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [CrashList] Reply to Mark
>Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:10:38 -0500
>
> >
> >Replies Tom:
> >
> >Yes, it is the "either-or" nature of the dialectic that ties you up,
>friend.
> >And don't hang up on semantics, either.
>
>Dialectic: quantity into quality, interpenetration of opposites, negation
>of negation. Where's the either-or? One thing we Marxies must continually
>spend energy on--to our eternal frustration--is not the argument against
>our position(s), but the effort to correct the perpetual misrepresentations
>of those positions.
>
> >
> >You are mistaking "interdependence" with finality and direct 1-1 ratios.
>Ian
> >Malcom's chaos theory notwithstanding, the storm on Manhattan Island is
>not
> >directly dependent upon the flap of the wings of the chinese butterfly.
> >What's involved here is NOT death of everything, NOT "the ecosphere as a
> >whole destroyed"; but CHANGE of everything.
>
>Very comforting. Very intellectual. Very detached. Hooray for you! Very
>nice pose.
>
>You must think continuums
> >(continua?), not "either-or"; bell curves and the right-wall curve of
> >evolution, not the total disappearance of the ecosphere. Worst case
> >scenario: there will be SOME ecosphere supporting bacteria and roaches,
> >despite us. (Biocentric viewpoints give us a handle to perhaps add to the
> >list.) Most likely some "individual communities" will survive.
> >
>
>Academic quibbling. What do you propose we DO... NOW?
>
> "Either-or", again Mark. You are arguing the "Perfect Storm" argument.
> >The crash will not be perfect, not all communities will be wiped from the
> >face of the planet. (It is a consequence-based argument in reality,
> >different bioregions suffer different consequences.)
>
>What do you propose we do? Now.
>
> >
> >You have also forgotten what you know about man's relation to nature and
> >also what you know about evolution. Think about the word "adaptation" a
>bit
> >and you will see both the problem and the solutions, ... locally ... one
> >community (perhaps even one grandchild) at a time.
>
>The speculative, detached academic pose. Very very nice. Youn know, of
>course, that this is part of the problem and the antithesis of the
>solution.
>
> >
> >We can NOT save the totality, but we will NOT lose "everything".
> >"Everything" will just CHANGE.
>
>JUST!!! change? JUST!?!?!?
>
>Just as one small example, for the first time
> >in history the Inuit are seeing thunderstorms. This is not good for them
> >unless they adapt. But they can .. and they will. Better than Wall Street
> >will adapt.
> >
> >The ecosphere is not going away, it is merely changing ... and destroying
> >civilization in the process. The more we understand about our
> >interdependence, the more chance each of us has in our bioregion to
>preserve
> >some part of humanity. NOT ALL humans are going to die, just most of
>them.
>
>You sound as if this is okay with you. Are you willing to step up and be
>first in line? Again, nice detachment.
>
> >The Inuit understand their bioregion and the changes --, they stand a
>better
> >chance of adaptation and survival. As a matter of fact the closer to
>nature
> >you are, the better is your chance.
> >
> >It is those who depend upon civilization to feed them who are most at
>risk.
>
>Who does NOT depend on civilization to feed them?
>
> >The more you can focus on biocentric understanding, the better. The more
>you
> >liberate youself and your community from that dependence upon the
>abberant
> >culture we have constructed, the better. It will not be the Perfect
>Storm,
> >just a very very bad one.
>
>Quibble, quible, quibble. Okay, you proved your point. You're a really
>smart intellectual. So maybe you can specifically explain how these
>hypothetical communities can "liberate" themselves from dependence on the
>surrounding society. I ask for this explanation humbly, as someone who
>doesn't have any degrees, and has to look up some of the words on this list
>in the dictionary. I'm not working in the academy... just in the world
>where I can't see how this self-isolating community can happen.
>
> >
> >Some consequences can be dealt with.
> >
> >Some communities will benefit from climate change. (don't mistake that
> >statement for overall approval!)
>
>Can you be specific? Which communities and how? I dare you to back this
>claim up with evidence.
>
> >
> >Many will die. One does not have to be among the dead.
>
>All will die. And we will all eventually be among the dead. This is an
>aspect of life. But your statement, even in the context within which it is
>intended, is meaningless.
>
> >
> >Saving what we can of the ecosphere is intrinsically good, plus it helps
>us
> >to perhaps save something of ourselves and restore the balance to status
>quo
> >ante. (of course there are other alternatives other status quo, such as
> >sitting back and watching it all fall down; but who wants a world with no
> >elephants, Siberian tigers and whales? .... even if it's less than a few
> >million of us there to witness.)
>
>As a Marxie, I have to say your class origins are glaringly evident
>throughout this entire studiously dispassionate discourse.
>
> >
> >We now know approximately how long we have, so we can look past the bars
>of
> >our cage and save a bit of our culture, a positive bit, hopefully.
>
>Better to think of how to construct an entirely new culture, I would think.
> Where do you think this crisis emerged from?
>
>
>
> >
> >We have much to do.
>
>Yes, and quibbling as a form of intellectual exhibitionism is high on the
>"to do" list.
>
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >PS I know it often looks as though I am Red-baiting, but really I do NOT
> >object to trying to establish class justice. I object to sticking one's
>head
> >in the sand and whining a demand for the revolution before acting to save
> >ANYthing, and I object to demanding class justice as a prerequisite to
>...
> >uh ... "ecospheric justice". It's all gotta work together, non?
>
>The problem is rooted in a system. Get it? I've got some weeds in my
>garden that proliferate underground through their roots. I can go out and
>yank out every one of them--doing something now, so to speak--and the
>garden looks very nice for about three days. Then they are all back up
>again. We Reds aren't seeking class justice, an oxymoron at any rate. Any
>reversal at all presupposes revolution.
>
>Many so-called intellectuals (and I'm not anti-intellectual, by any means)
>need to revist and think about the meaning of a simple word: necessity.
>
>
>
>
>
>"If insurrection is an art, its main content is to know how to give the
>struggle the form appropriate to the political situation."
>
> -Vo Nguyen Giap
>
>
>
>"Rather than seeking comparabilities in statistical terms among what are
>all too often superficial features of different situations, comparabilities
>must be sought at the level of determinate mechanisms, at the level of
>processes that are generally hidden from easy view."
>
> -Eleanor Burke Leacock
>
>
>
>"Every day one has to struggle that this love to a living humanity
>transform itself into concrete acts, in acts that serve as examples, as
>motivation."
>
> -Ernesto "Che" Guevara
>
>"Mask no difficulties."
>
> -Amilcar Cabral
>
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