Thanks, Rob
You have my respect (whatever THAT's worth <g>) for posting a well thought
out and important set of thoughts.
This is the kind of thing I was hoping we could discuss. This is what
dialogue on crashlist should be, IMHO. Thanks.
>Okay, Tom.
>
>I say we have to act globally. Support the wave of street democracy we saw
>at Seattle. Suggest accessible and coherent critiques to it (which it
>seems
>to lack), and publicise this in order to counter the ridiculing of the
>econosuits. .. [snip for brevity only] Come up with, say, Polanyi's idea
>that we must hold back the ascending notion of a market-embedded society by
>stressing the democratic necessity of a socially embedded market. It
>doesn't matter whether you think you can get the latter without
>overthrowing
>capitalism or not (after all, Marx thought capitalism a market-embedded
>society by important definition). It's what we need, whether we're
>Marxists, thinking liberals, or Hallyx.
Hee hee, good one on Hal.
Yes, there is much that I agree with in this, and I think it is very
important to be coherant and cohesive in those actions. (even with Hallyx.)
The Polanyi concept has broader implications about control that have been
discussed by the Brazilian Prof Ramos, and if I can find the books, I'll try
to post some of that wisdom. MY objection is that we must head away from the
concept as "socially imbedded" toward "environmentally imbedded", and that
we have damn little time to do it. In a way, this is what I meant by
"biocentric attitude."
>To clarify the need for such an institutional demand,, the
>environmentalists
>were initially ...[snip]..... what mostly concerned the environmentalists
>and labour groups protesting at Seattle." If we're successful, well and
>good. If we're not, well, a popular movement will have learned of a system
>which cannot proffer the very rights upon which it legitimises itself ...
Yep. The kind of political/economic dyslexia of environmentalists is well
known, usually foisted off as "naive". That's why we all have to get
cohesive real quick. Marxists are better skilled in those areas where
environmentalists are weak, and the biocentric viewpoint is not a strong
suit among marxists. It begs the Rodney King question, "can't we all get
along?"
>I say all this within the context of the mtaeconomic stuff I keep saying
>about directionless and ecologically unresponsive accumulation - the stuff
>Tom is pleased to call 'background noise' and 'carping', but stuff some of
>his listmates happen to believe is essential to a conversation that must
>integrate the categories we classify as human and natural.
Nah, I think you mistake my frustration with vitriol for some kind of
animosity to the "metaeconomic stuff". I respect the latter, I'm just tired
of the background noise of namecalling and failing to speak to the issues.
(All this said with some eye to my own denegration of the "value" arguemnt,
I saw it as a roadblock to understanding a biocentric idea of the rape of
the bioshphere. However, I plead guilty to a bit too much carping about it.)
>
>I wonder, indeed, whether Tom'd mightn't have a little more respect for the
>notion, indeed might not choose to look for its significance, if only a
>Malthus had said it instead of that unspeakable idealogue Karl Marx. Or an
>Einstein, for that matter ...
I honestly don't think I am guilty of this. Rather, I think that there is a
little too much "human categories" being integrated into damn little
"natural". You are right that I am not a big fan of KM, but I DO understand
a bit more of him than is attributed to me. Would that a call for similar
respect for Arne Naess or was a topic on Crashlist threads. <g>
>
>You must excuse me for taking the bandwidth to express my indignation, but
>to have contributions to the discussion ridiculed just because they're
>associated with a particular thinker absolutely burns my buns.
Yayyyyyyyyy! Me too!!! Can we hope that in the future your defense applies
to contributions to the discussion associated with ALL particular thinkers?
(Gawd, we might mistakenly wanna inject something said by Alan Greenspan at
some point! Ick! Think of THAT acrimony!!!!)
>I don't
>defend everything self-identified Marxists have contributed to this forum
>(neither should I), but to have a whole tradition ridiculed ('typical
>Marxist' and 'those Marxies') by people who show no sign of having had the
>slightest peek at even the surfaces of the very promising holistic theory
>on
>offer, well, I'd rather front a red card than have to put up with it -
>whether it be out of spite or a paucity of self-reflection.
>
>Cheers,
>Rob.
Thanks, Rob. Ya might wanna go back into the archive and see the ridicule
with which the word "Malthusian" was treated when I first started posting.
That's how I painted myself into this corner, trying to show ya'll the
"slightest peek" at what has been so often pejoratively labeled
"neo-malthusian". What goes around comes around, I guess. I will leave it to
Hallyx to integrate Einstein into this.
I very much appreciate your response.
Tom
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us 'Universe', a part
limited by time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and
feelings as something separate from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of
his consciousness. The delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us
to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle
of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its
beauty." -- Albert Einstein
>
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