I agree. It's horribly complicated.
The art is to break down the issues into treatable units, that answer
relevant questions
by priority ranking. Not to model what "Rights" can mean. Any help in
separating the questions most welcome.
best,
martin
On 21/3/2017 4:36 μμ, Simon Spero wrote:
I was about to write that "It's more complicated than that", but you
got there first.
Also your comments over-simplify :-)
The good thing about personal property and intellectual property is
that at least they're not real property. That's where things really
get confused.
BTW, it is not always possible to treat ownership by more than one
legal persons as if they were a single entity. The rights of the
parties may differ in different situations.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 6:32 AM martin <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Robert, Stephen,
I think these questions are too complex for an e-mail discussion.
It is
absolutely non-trivial to talk about
50% ownership. The CRM was clearly not made to describe business
transaction in the way you mention below. That needs a careful
extension
and systematic description of the questions. We had formed a team to
investigate business models analyzing spectrum, but the partners from
Collection Trust dropped out later.
The first action would be to restart that work, form a team, and
recover
all arguments in the minutes.
As CRM-SIG, we are interested in robust models that we can
recommend as
standards. That requires a complete understanding of the issues.
The reasoning about owning a physical thing is very different from
owning an Information Object. Metaphoric analogies natural language is
built on can be very deceiving.
Any user of the CRM can make his own extensions any time. It is not a
virtue to reuse CRM constructs for areas not intended to. That causes
the typical mess of pseudo-compatiblity.
If we describe physical ownership as a E30 Right, we come in conflict
with the property.
I propose to split the questions.
Martin
On 21/3/2017 8:25 πμ, Stephen Stead wrote:
> Robert
> The question of a Right held by multiple people is indeed
interesting.
> Might it be modelled as all parties forming a Group that then
holds the Right?
> If the proportions of the Right held by individuals was
important then I think your suggestion of component Rights that
form part of the overall Right and each having a dimension would
do very well.
> Rgds
> SdS
>
> Stephen Stead
> Tel +44 20 8668 3075
> Mob +44 7802 755 013
> E-mail [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> LinkedIn Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/in/steads
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Crm-sig [mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Robert Sanderson
> Sent: 20 March 2017 21:42
> To: martin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>;
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Rights model
>
>
> Apologies for the delay in responding, we’ve been trying to map
out the extent of the information we need to track to enable
research on historical art markets and ownership.
>
> One of the most interesting and challenging questions that has
come up is around joint ownership of a piece of art. Ownership of
an object is clearly a Right, but is it divisible with
P148_has_component (via inheritance from E89)? For example, if
two Persons each own 50% of the value of an object, is there an
Ownership Right, which has two component Rights, each of which
have a dimension of 50% ?
>
> Or would that mean that there are two halves of the expression
of the Right, perhaps the main clause and an equally long rider?
>
> I think that answering this question will help with the broader
question of the meaning of E30.
>
> Some use cases:
> * Two dealers (Knoedler and Goupil) jointly pay for a
painting, and later jointly share the profits (or loss!) when it’s
sold
> * A donor donates 10% of the value of an object each year for
10 years (to spread out the tax write off)
> * A married couple divorce and agree to have half share in the
value of their statue
> * The children of the owner inherit an equal share of the
valuable manuscript on the owner’s death
> * The object is jointly owned by the city and the museum from
when the city and museum were indistinguishable as organizations
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Rob
>
> On 3/10/17, 9:53 AM, "Crm-sig on behalf of martin"
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> on behalf of
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> On 28/2/2017 9:50 μμ, Robert Sanderson wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Given the current model, I believe that E30 Right is an
instance of the holding of a Right, rather than the concept of the
Right itself? For example, E30 is not “Copyright” or “Apache 2.0”
or “Ownership” … it is “The holding of copyright of an object by
Martin”, “the use of Apache 2.0 for some code by Rob”, or
“Ownership of a house by Emma”.
> Dear Robert,
>
> Yes, here we should actually talk about three things: The
holding of the
> right, the content of the right, and the concept of the
right. E30 is
> intended to be the content of the right, which is
relatively trivial if
> it is just an instance of unspecified copyright, but not if
it is an
> individual contract. If the holding of the right can be
merged with the
> content or not, is to be discussed. See my previous message.
>
> best,
>
> martin
> >
> > If this is not intended to be the case, can someone
provide an example in RDF (your serialization preference is fine)
that demonstrates two different people holding two different
rights over the same object?
> >
> > Given that … we are expected to then use P2_has_type to
refer to the sort of Right, and thus queries should look for:
?object P104_is_subject_to ?right . ?right P2_has_type
<actual_right> .
> > If so, how would one refer to the Creative Commons
licenses? Still with P2?
> >
> > Many thanks!
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > Example of P104/P105/P75:
> > {
> > "@context": "https://linked.art/ns/context/1/full.jsonld";,
> > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/object/31";,
> > "@type": "crm:E22_Man-Made_Object",
> > "rdfs:label": "Object",
> > "crm:P104_is_subject_to": [
> > "https://linked.art/example/Right/0";,
> > "https://linked.art/example/Right/1";
> > ],
> > "crm:P105_right_held_by": [
> > {
> > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/actor/6";,
> > "@type": "crm:E39_Actor",
> > "rdfs:label": "Owner",
> > "crm:P75_possesses": {
> > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/Right/0";,
> > "@type": "crm:E30_Right",
> > "rdfs:label": "Ownership Right by Owner of Object"
> > }
> > },
> > {
> > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/actor/7";,
> > "@type": "crm:E39_Actor",
> > "rdfs:label": "Holder",
> > "crm:P75_possesses": {
> > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/Right/1";,
> > "@type": "crm:E30_Right",
> > "rdfs:label": "Copyright by Holder of Object['s
information object]"
> > }
> > }
> > ]
> > }
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Crm-sig mailing list
> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>
> --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
> | Email:
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> |
> |
> Center for Cultural Informatics |
> Information Systems Laboratory |
> Institute of Computer Science |
> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
> |
> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
> |
> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing list
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing list
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
--------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: [email protected] |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
--------------------------------------------------------------
