Thank you all for your comments and contributions. None of the solutions proposed so far convinces me.
Intangible heritage (Tango, for instance) is not the cumulation of many/all related activities/actors (Tango performances, Tango dancers, etc), which instead are related because they are all manifestations/performers of the same abstract concept. Rebetiko is even more difficult to characterize as it involves a particular lifestyle and individuals - the mangas in the past, perhaps now more a mood than a social class - and is often associated with the bouzouki. But of course it is not the mere addition of all this. I am not suggesting to study such concepts in greater detail, it may be off-topic. I think however that it is impossible to document monuments without addressing their intangible component. This came up when dealing with conservation: it is not just a matter to maintain their physical state, preserving their E3 Condition State which according to its scope note "describes the prevailing PHYSICAL condition of any material object”. Opening a Mac Donald in the Coliseum would not alter too much its E3, but would probably depreciate its value as a monument. best Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence President, ARIADNE Research Infrastructure AISBL Chief Technology Officer 4CH Editor-in-Chief ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 9 mar 2023, alle ore 20:23, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > <[email protected]> ha scritto: > > Dear All, > > I suggest to make a case study with Rebetiko. It is a relatively confined > tradition and living. We have access to a lot of material here in Greece. By > the way, we met a young lady from India who came to Greece and has learned to > play Rebetiko. > > I think we should look at phenomena and people influencing each other, > protagonists, etc., of varying types appearing in a cultural space and time, > in particular concentrating at specific places and times. People meeting in > these performances and carrying the idea forward. A certain "density" keeps > it alive, like a species surviving. I agree with Franco. > > Best, > > Martin > > On 3/9/2023 8:00 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I think this is quite overstretching what an activity is. Of course we can >> make quick and dirty use of any class. I cannot imagine, how an "All Tango >> Performances" could be associated with a clear identity, unity and >> distinction from others. This would mean that any type of activity becomes >> an activity, isn't it? All specializations and generalizations would then be >> identical with part-of of activities? >> >> How would you then give an account of different strands of such traditions? >> This model virtually denies evolution and variation. I think that needs >> serious thought and a model which provides a much subtler relation between >> an idea, its execution and its evolution. >> >> Note, that any type is a Conceptual Object. Creating Tango as an E55 Type is >> a creation. I'd suggest to look at the new properties connecting Types with >> periods in which they appear. The challenge is, for me, not to provide a >> place to say "Tango is here", but to relate individual activities, >> performances, music, fashions, costumes etc along lines of evolution, >> variation and cross-fertalization. >> >> Best, >> >> Martin >> >> On 3/9/2023 6:33 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: >>> I'm posting the following response text from Steve because the mailing list >>> software tosses his messages out: >>> >>> Just a quick thought. As you mention a set of individual performances (E7 >>> Activities) you could say that the individual performances (E7 Activity: >>> performance of Tango on particular day/time and at a particular place) P9i >>> forms part of a master E7 Activity (All Tango Performances). E7 Activity >>> (All Tango Performances) P16 used specific object E28 Conceptual >>> Object(Intangible Heritage of the Tango). E7 Activity (All Tango >>> Performances) P14 carried out by E39 Actor(Tango Community) >>> You could also say: >>> E28 Conceptual Object(Intangible Heritage of the Tango) P94i was created by >>> E65 Creation P14 carried out by E39 Actor(Tango Community) >>> This would make the community both the creator and performer of the >>> intangible heritage: which I believe is the current "best practice". >>> The timespan of the creation is of course open-ended as these are "living" >>> traditions. >>> HTH >>> SdS >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:57 PM George Bruseker <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> I'd use the term 'forms of life' instead of 'intangible heritage'. Then the >>> likely closest CRM concept is E5 Event, at least if you want to be able to >>> associate to actors in any direct way. >>> >>> E5 Event "Tango" p11 had participant E74 Group. >>> >>> Probably to be more expressive one would need an extension for social life! >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:18 PM Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> It is a good question. Also note that documentation of intangible cultural >>> heritage is in most cases ttangible. According to UNESCO intangible >>> cultural heritage is defined as >>> Article 2 – Definitions >>> For the purposes of this Convention, >>> 1. The “intangible cultural heritage” means the practices, representations, >>> expressions, knowledge, skills – as well as the instruments, objects, >>> artefacts and cultural spaces associated therewith – that communities, >>> groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as part of their cultural >>> heritage. This intangible cultural heritage, transmitted from generation to >>> generation, is constantly recreated by communities and groups in response >>> to their environment, their interaction with nature and their history, and >>> provides them with a sense of identity and continuity, thus promoting >>> respect for cultural diversity and human creativity. For the purposes of >>> this Convention, consideration will be given solely to such intangible >>> cultural heritage as is compatible with existing international human rights >>> instruments, as well as with the requirements of mutual respect among >>> communities, groups and individuals, and of sustainable development. >>> >>> 2. The “intangible cultural heritage”, as defined in paragraph 1 above, is >>> manifested inter alia in the following domains: >>> (a) oral traditions and expressions, including language as a vehicle of the >>> intangible cultural heritage; >>> (b) performing arts; >>> (c) social practices, rituals and festive events; >>> (d) knowledge and practices concerning nature and the universe; >>> (e) traditional craftsmanship. >>> >>> Best, >>> Christian-Emil >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Crm-sig <[email protected]> on behalf of Franco Niccolucci >>> via Crm-sig <[email protected]> >>> Sent: 09 March 2023 14:54 >>> To: crm-sig >>> Subject: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group >>> In the UNESCO List of World Intangible Heritage many items (= E28 >>> Conceptual Object) are referred to specific gatherings of people - commonly >>> named “communities” in everyday's language - such as: >>> >>> Tango -> Argentina & Uruguay >>> Rebetiko -> Greece >>> Opera dei pupi (puppet theatre) -> Italy (Sicily) >>> >>> These geographic names in reality mean the people, the inhabitants (maybe >>> not all of them): Argentinians, Uruguayos, Greeks, Sicilians i.e. the >>> social groups who are the custodians/performers of these traditions. >>> >>> So two classes are involved >>> 1) The group (Argentinians, Greeks, etc.) = E39 Actor >>> 2) The conceptual object representing the intangible heritage (Tango, >>> Rebetiko, etc.) = E28 Conceptual Object >>> >>> Note that intangibile heritage is NOT an activity, it is the abstraction of >>> a set of activities and the way in which they are traditionally performed, >>> which manifests through events/activities i.e. individual performances. >>> >>> Which property - if any - can be used to relate such E39 Actors to the >>> corresponding E28? >>> >>> Thank you for any help on the above. >>> >>> Franco >>> >>> Prof. Franco Niccolucci >>> Director, VAST-LAB >>> PIN - U. of Florence >>> President, ARIADNE Research Infrastructure AISBL >>> Chief Technology Officer 4CH >>> >>> Editor-in-Chief >>> ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) >>> >>> Piazza Ciardi 25 >>> 59100 Prato, Italy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------ >> Dr. Martin Doerr >> >> Honorary Head of the >> Center for Cultural Informatics >> >> Information Systems Laboratory >> Institute of Computer Science >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >> >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >> >> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >> Email: [email protected] >> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: [email protected] > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig _______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
