-Caveat Lector- In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; from [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 12:07:30AM -0500 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com
On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 12:07:30AM -0500, Zuukie wrote: >I sent Mark's post to a number of people. Here is a response from one >of them: > >Fascism is based on the ideal of National SOCIALISM. The only real >difference between a Nazi and a Communist is that a Nazi believes that >socialism can be achieved in a single nation while a communist believes >that a global socialist state is need to fully implement socialist >tyranny. One of the first things the Nazis did was to murder every socialist they could find. When leftists talk about socialism today they mean DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM, with workers (including managers) having democratic control (one-person-one-vote, not one-dollar-one-vote as in the U.S. today) over the businesses they work in and over the economy and government as a whole. Regardless of their party's name or the original beliefs of some of their members, the actual facts of Nazism and Italian and Japanese Fascism is that they were financed by (some) wealthy businessmen and they served the interests of wealthy businessmen. All these forms of Fascism specifically murdered everyone who advocated democratic control of businesses and the economy by the people. They even murdered union leaders who simply wanted to organize workers so they could gain some leverage toward better wages and conditions. The German Fascists (Nazis) got most of their financing from (some) wealthy American businessmen. After WWII, (some) wealthy American businessmen, acting through conservative politicians, carried out assassinations and covert and overt military attacks on dozens of different nations, to murder exactly the same sorts of pro-human political leaders that the Nazis murdered. See the references below. >This person is of the mistaken assumption that profits are evil. No, it is _excessive_ profits -- those that rob from workers most of the value of the goods and services they produce -- that are evil. >what he ignores is that the much maligned American capitalist >economy has created more wealth A great deal of the wealth created by the American capitalist economy has been accomplished by taking control of third world nations (see the references below), robbing their natural resources, installing murderous dictatorial (death-squad) governments, and then using their populations as slave labor at wages of pennies per hour to grow and manufacture products for American corporations. This practice is still going on. >and distributed it more evenly than any >other economic system in the history of mankind. No socialist economy >anywhere, ever has created the broad distribution of wealth the US >economy has... period. Wrong. Scandinavian and other countries that practice Social Democracy -- democratic control over a capitalist economy, with limitations on profits and a large public sector to provide housing, medical care, etc., that capitalism doesn't -- have much better distribution of wealth than the U.S. economy. And people in Cuba, and under the former socialist government of Nicaragua, have done much better than under U.S.-imposed capitalism, even with U.S.-enforced trade embargos and military attacks that did tremendous damage to their economies. >He also assumes that the elimination of all social barriers is a good >thing. History shows us this isn't so. The social anarchy that followed >the French and Russian revolutions were not the beginnings of a >socialist utopia, they were rightly called Reigns of Terror. Sooner or later tyrants and their advocates will divulge their true motives! Here "Zuukie" and (as I'm told) her friends are advocating the maintenance of economic-class, racial, and gender social barriers, which can mean nothing less than control of the government, society, and economy by wealthy white businessmen. This is exactly the agenda of the Fascists and the businessmen who supported them, for the simple purpose of maximizing their profits. >The "gay rights" movement isn't about civil rights for homosexuals. >Homosexuals enjoy all the same civil rights as other Americans. Absolutely false. Homosexual people are generally not allowed to have official marriages, and so are denied the various economic and social rights that such marriages confer, and they are also discriminated against in employment, housing, etc. >Its about government mandated endorsement of sodomy and nothing else. That is an absurd lie. Sodomy -- oral and anal sex -- is widely practiced by heterosexual, as well as homosexual, people. The laws that homosexual people want, permitting marriage and forbidding discrimination, do not "endorse" sodomy any more than current laws endorse penile-vaginal intercourse. Here is the ideal general principle of morality: Don't harm other people; do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. In fact, that is the fundamental principle of Wicca! "If ye harm none, do what thou wilt!" >The 'gay rights' movement wants to create a 'right of access' for >homosexuals to other people's children. This vague and unsupported accusation is a repetition of the favorite lying smear against homosexual people by Christian and Jewish Fundamentalists -- that they are child molesters. Not only are most child molesters heterosexual, the percentage of child molesters among homosexuals is no greater than that among heterosexuals. Child molestation has no connection whatsoever with the gender of people to whom one is attracted. >The have demanded that the >Congress reverse Loving v. Virginia, where the court ruled that marriage >was a common law institution that was not subject to redefinition by the >state and in the process they did away with miscegenation laws. Now they >want to say marriage is whatever the state says it is. Marriage confers upon the couple certain recognition and rights that help them to care for each other and their children. Homosexual couples should have these benefits in return for their commitment to each other in marriage just as heterosexual couples do, including those of mixed "races", who were formerly forbidden to marry by "miscegenation" laws. >It's not as if >these demands have improved the lot of homosexuals. In the Netherlands, >where they've gotten everything they've wanted, their median age of >death is still roughly 40 years younger than similarly situated >heterosexuals and they suffer MORE greatly from depression and other >mental illness than in the states. There are many ways in which the Netherlands and the U.S. differ. To claim that homosexual people in Holland are more depressed than those in the U.S. (if this is even true), and that this is due to their having full civil rights, is absurd. No cause-and-effect connection is given. "Zuukie" is using the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy, claiming that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other. >Feminism isn't about civil rights for women. Women have had all the >civil rights of men since the passage of the 19th amendment in 1920. Again "Zuukie" flatly makes an assertion that is utterly false. Women have been discriminated against in employment and wages, and in protection by the law (when attacks by men are dismissed as mere "domestic disputes", and not prosecuted). >It's about redefining society to say men and women are identical (as >opposed to equal), In fact, the capability of women to perform productive work and to head a family IS identical to that of men. >that men and male perogatives like fatherhood and the >traditional family are 'outmoded'. More vague and meaningless crap. Unless "traditional family" means the man in the family dominating the woman, according to the dictates of the Old Testament. That certainly _should_ be eliminated. >Of course, with the adoption of >feminist demands like easy divorce, government preferrence of single >mothers, abortion on demand and so on, we've seen our juvenille >deliquency rates sky-rocket, we've seen the absolute destruction of the >family unit in the black and latino communities (and it's not in such >great shape among whites either, but Asians and Jews seem to be fairly a >little better). There is no cause-and-effect relationship shown here. By far the most important cause of family difficulties is limited income, which results from the robbery, by wealthy people as profit, of most of the value of the goods and services produced by working parents. >Wicca, and these other New Age religions, seek to reduce man to the >level of the animals instead of recognizing that each of us is a unique >creation. The reader can dispel this absurd lie by reading any book by recognized Wiccans, such as those by Starhawk: http://www.starhawk.org/ Wiccan religions leave their members free to be themselves and believe what they wish. It's the Jewish/Christian/Islamic religions that order people to submit to domination by the jealous god in the sky, and (actually) to the dictates of his priests and their writings. >Likewise, these religions are socialist, emphasizing the group >over the individual. Man exists to serve the state (or the coven, or >whatever group you like). Wicca doesn't make people serve anyone or any thing. "Zuukie" and her bigoted right-wing friends are just making this shit up. Here are a couple of good informative websites about Wicca: http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm http://www.witchcraft.org/ >Whereas under Jewish morality, government >exists to serve the people. Instead of the worker being a cog in the >state managed "greater good" (as under socialism and New Age religion), >Judaism holds that each man, even the lowliest laborer, is entitled to >seek his own betterment, the economy serves the person NOT the otherway >around. Insofar as it is human nature to seek one's own interests, and >insofar as Judaism teaches one how to do so in a way that builds a >better world for everyone it is FAR more human than any religion that >man conceived. Tell that to the Palestinians, who have been robbed, pushed off their land, and tens of thousands tortured and murdered by the fundamentalist Jewish state of Israel. Tell it to male babies screaming out their agony while being genitally mutilated (circumcised), as allowed or asked for by brainwashed parents who believe and follow the most anti-human doctrines merely because they are written in the Bible/Torah. In democratic socialism or social democracy, people control the economy and make it work for them; thus the economy serves the workers. In unregulated capitalism, people are forced to work for whatever wages the dominating businessmen choose to pay them, while these businessmen keep for themselves most of the value that the workers produce. Since workers have no control over businesses or the economy as a whole, they are forced to serve it, or actually to serve the wealthy owners who control it and the government. If you control it, it serves you; if you don't and are forced to depend on it for your livelihood, then you serve it; it's that simple! (And that obvious.) The claim that individuals can "better themselves" within an unregulated capitalist economy is a myth for most people. Poor people have difficulty affording the education adequate for competing in business, and businesses they start themselves are at a great disadvantage compared to established ones that already enjoy name recognition, distribution channels, and economies of scale. The "Horatio Alger" myth is promulgated by the wealthy capitalist elite to get the sheep to serve them -- "Serve me long enough and someday you too will join the elite and be able to rob the value of what workers produce." For almost everyone, with very few exceptions, that day never comes. >This is the most inane, assinine load of leftist garbage I have read in >a while. The author is utterly clueless about how societies and >economies actually work. What he and his confederates seek is not >liberty but license, not freedom but the ability to tyranize those who >don't agree with him. It is socialism as we have seen it in a thousand >gulags and concentration camps around the world. We will see it again, >sadly, and millions will pay with their lives for his greed and the >greed of his confederates. But let's call this by it's right name. It's >not "progressive"... it's evil! Vague rhetorical bullshit! What I seek is democracy -- control of government and economy by all people equally, without unfair advantages gained by the wealthy through campaign financing and winner-take-all voting. And furthermore, people must have a variety of uncensored news media that tell the whole truth, not media owned and controlled by wealthy businessmen telling lies that serve only themselves. Such as the current Big Lie that the U.S. was attacked by "terrorists" on 9-11, and we must give up our Constitutional rights and freedoms, and make war on various other (coincidentally oil-rich) countries, in order to be safe. See: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911/ Evil is people harming other people to benefit themselves. The robbing by wealthy capitalists from workers of nearly all the value the workers produce is the greatest economic evil. The principles followed by the Russian and Chinese Communists contained the flawed idea of an elite or "vanguard" of Communist Party members who would lead, and thus control, everyone else. This is what resulted in gulags. Well-informed people in democratic control of their government -- which is what socialists and social-democrats want -- don't put themselves in gulags. References: The US Is And Has Been The Center Of World Fascism -- Destroying Democracy Around the World To Increase The Profits Of Wealthy Businessmen o Most of the funding for Hitler's military buildup came from some very wealthy conservative Americans and their businesses. Many of the racial-superiority ideas came from American organizations also. http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html http://www.ka.net/randy/conspiracies/conspiracies.html http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/ http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm _Trading With The Enemy_, Charles Higham, 1983 _All Honorable Men_, James Stuart Martin, 1950 _Who Financed Hitler?_, James & Suzanne Pool, 1978 _The Secret War Against The Jews_, John Loftus & Mark Aarons, 1994 o Since WWII, the U.S., on behalf of some very wealthy Americans, has attacked over 50 nations by military action or subversion, in order to prevent the citizens of those nations from having democratic control of their government and economy, leaving them helpless against tyranny and exploitation by American corporations and U.S.-backed fascist governments and militia/ death-squads. http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/KillingHope_page.html http://www.michaelparenti.org http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/ArchiveARCHIVE/M%20P/MP.html www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. 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