On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 11:12 AM, Zuukie wrote:
A great deal of the wealth created by the American capitalist economy has been accomplished by taking control of third world nations (see the references below), robbing their natural resources, installing murderous dictatorial (death-squad) governments, and then using their populations as slave labor at wages of pennies per hour to grow and manufacture products for American corporations. This practice is still going on.
there are many libertarians, conservatives, and other advocates of free-enterprise capitalism who absolutely deplore these types of atrocities by the US government, and who deplore the form the government has taken over the past century. regardless of the pluses or minuses of their viewpoints, it is totally unfair to their views and a cheapshot to lump all non-socialist views together with the atrocities of the current ruling elites and simply label it all "capitalism". that's a gutter level cheap shot, and the left just keeps on doing it. in fact, although i have some fundamental differences with the libertarians, i feel that their arguments that the atrocities of the US govt have been enabled by the institutionalization of the "welfare-warfare state" more than anything else are sometimes more prinicpled and more analytically grounded than the left has to offer.
M:Wrong. Scandinavian and other countries that practice Social Democracy...have much better distribution of wealth than the U.S. economy. Z: Are you suggesting we should stop all foreign aid, all military aid to other countries, support of the UN, all humanitarian aide to other countries, etc. and keep the profits here for the betterment our people? Coveting again?
i think that redistribution of wealth & land should be on the table... at the same time, it should be recognized that attempts to apply aspects of social democracy in the US have had the opposite effect of what was promised. for example, the "progressive" income tax, which was supposed to redistribute wealth, has actually served to demolish the middle and upper-middle classes, thus preventing any challenges to the top elites. these top elites are also inveterate opponents of genuine free enterprise; they LOVE planned economies. (but these days, instead of being planned by governments, they are planned by multilater corporations.) this was spelled out in a carnegie foundation study from the 30s, which is not well known today...
also i'd like to point out that there used to be some populist forms of socialism in the US, believe it or not, but these were extinguished by the postwar trotskyist / countercultural left. i think some open-minded reexamination is due:
http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/ArchiveARCHIVE/MARK%20EVANS/ PopulistSocialism.html
M:Sooner or later tyrants and their advocates will divulge their true motives! Here "Zuukie" and (as I'm told) her friends are advocating the maintenance of economic-class, racial, and gender social barriers, which can mean nothing less than control of the government, society, and economy by wealthy white businessmen. This is exactly the agenda of the Fascists and the businessmen who supported them, for the simple purpose of maximizing their profits. Z: Wow. All that? Leaping logic !!!!
leaping logic indeed. mark is using polemical, either-or arguments, demonizing rather than debating. but zuukie, you're very polemical as well.
The "gay rights" movement isn't about civil rights for homosexuals. Homosexuals enjoy all the same civil rights as other Americans.
Absolutely false. Homosexual people are generally not allowed to have official marriages, and so are denied the various economic and social rights that such marriages confer, and they are also discriminated against in employment, housing, etc.
homosexual marriages ought to be allowed; let's be humane. but homosexual parenting should not. but the idea that the ruling class in the US are homophobic per se is nonsense; the rockefeller-funded kinsey studies deliberately exaggerated the prevalence of homosexuality in america, along with other aspects of "non-traditional" sexuality. it is very clear that the changing of america's sexual mores was sanctioned from the top, from certain circles anyway. not in the sense of supporting "liberation", but to create demographic changes, to weaken the family structure and thus make the citizenry more susceptible to having their values changed by propaganda, and also to lower the birth rate in accordance with elite concerns about population (the rockefellers were at the same time setting up groups like the Population Council to carry on the eugenics cause... the rockefellers have been heavily involved in funding certain types of feminist programs, and supporting feminist programs through the UN, because this offers a convenient PR shield to hide the eugenics agenda behind some "family planning" efforts.) just because the reaction to social change is often imbued with some bigotry, does not mean that a reaction is completely unjustified.
M:Women have been discriminated against in employment and wages, and in protection by the law ...
there is no doubt that there has been much discrimination against women. however, the statistics and analysis have often been exaggerated, and the blame unfairly placed on men in general, or on vacuous, grandiose concepts like "patriarchy", which can amount to a kind of psychological warfare, and continue the game of blaming "society" as a diversion from blaming the specific elite class. this is no accident -- family men and working men have always in the past been a threat to the ruling class, being the backbone of populist and labor movements. keeping them feeling guilty, stressed, and confused, has helped diminish this threat (or alternately, drives men into the hands of reactionary political ideas). i'm not at all meaning to say that women do not have as much of a role to play in politics as men, i'm just referring to the actual historical circumstances. also, the feminist idea of the two-worker household came along at a very convenient time for the elites, just at the time that living standards started dropping in the west. so, this softened and delayed the impact of potential rebellion, by keeping the effects somewhat hidden from view for a while.
here is a rebuttal of some common mistaken assumptions about gender and work... http://www.glennsacks.com/men_women_and.htm
Research establishes that children fare best in a married, two parent home, and that the largest single predictor of whether a student will graduate high school, attend college, become involved in crime or drugs, or get pregnant is a fathers' presence in that home. http://www.glennsacks.com/undermining_the_american.htm
Fathers bear brunt of bias in family courts http://www.glennsacks.com/fathers_bear_the.htm
Boys: the new underclass in America's schools http://www.glennsacks.com/boys_the_new.htm
Popular Women's Studies 101 Textbook: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics http://www.glennsacks.com/popular_womens_studies.htm
something that bears notice about glenn sacks' work -- look at his press credits, and notice the prevalence of "right wing" propaganda outlets like newsmax and worldnet; this gives them legitimacy! the double-standards and errors of establishment feminism have given the "other side" a straw man on a silver platter!
Friend:>Likewise, these religions are socialist, emphasizing the group over theindividual. Man exists to serve the state (or the coven, or whatever group you like).
M:Wicca doesn't make people serve anyone or any thing. "Zuukie" and her bigoted right-wing friends are just making this shit up.
Z: If you bother to check it out, you will see the very powerful occult Lucis Trust in its writings says that evil is that which causes separation. Any group which separates itself from the mainstream is evil.
i don't know much about wicca, but i have known some wiccans who were nice people and seemed to be individualists. but there are other forms of "new age" -ish occultism which are very deeply imbued with hierarchal / collectivist obsessions, and the resulting subsumation of individuality. in some general terms, i think zuukie is right about this and it is a notable difference from a religion like christianity. (but i personally wouldn't use the word "socialist"). it's important to note that the philosophy of natural law and inalienable rights embodied in the constitution and bill of rights were directly inspired by the bible. credit belongs where credit is due.
in addition to things like the lucis trust (née lucifer trust) which i agree is important to look at, there is the long-running efforts at manipulating religion by the elites; again, the rockefellers are deeply involved in this, particularly in the areas of humanism, ecumenism and world religion. there is no doubt that there is a massive effort underway to engineer a new "world religion" -- this has been spoken of explicity by the NWO crowd quite often in the past -- and the idea that old beliefs have "failed" us, and that we need to be rescued by "agents of change" will be at the center of this PR. the earth charter movement will likely be part of this:
http://www.earthcharter.org/earthcharter/charter.htm (note: this was actually drafted at a meeting on the rockefeller family estate!) http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn1009.html the earth charter launch was dedicated to queen beatrix, friend of the bush family and supporter of the US attack on Iraq! what a strange, small world: http://www.gci.ch/GreenCrossPrograms/earthcharter/ECharterbeatrix.html
people ought to be extremely wary of what ideas are currently being co-opted by the elites! still i have to add that ordinary folks who simply want to explore other belief systems for themselves, and not engage in the divisive, veiled hatred of culture war, should not be attacked for it.
M: What I seek is democracy -- control of government and economy by all people equally, without unfair advantages gained by the wealthy
easy to say...
Z: There is no equality in control of the government by all people where people are too lazy to find out for themselves what is happening. I find that the media lulls people into accepting the leftist agenda that is not as extreme as your views are at this point. The media serves the cause of big government which works very hard to control all individual initiative thru government regulation. I notice you are in no way concerned about the monies put out by foundations to control the culture. Your generalizations are an insult to the many small business owners in this country who struggle and risk their futures to be independent. You are living in the 1800s where there were more unregulated big capitalists and small workers and not today when anyone can start up a small business with some initiative.
"The major political divisions of socialism against capitalism, communism against libertarianism, left against right, are based on a flawed dialectic, a conflict between a bankrupt thesis and its immoral quasi-utopian antithesis. The synthesis of middle-road compromise takes on the worst aspects of both.
Activists need to stop fighting the wars of the last century. We need to develop some common ground. "
http://www.911-strike.com/strike.htm
the following offers a possible option which avoids both the aristocratic apologism of libertarians and the collectivist monomania of socialists... it also helps undo some of the damage that has been done by the marxist tradition's habit of lumping together land & resources with business all under the vague catch-all, "means of production".
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tma68/geo-faq.htm
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