-Caveat Lector-
day wrote:
Notes: The above quotations were excerpted from "The Myth
of Separation" by David Barton, published by Wallbuilder
Press.
http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/question.html
Q.: What is your opinion of David Barton's book The Myth of
Separation?
A.: The real myth is that Mr. Barton is an historian.
1. It is highly dishonest for any writer on this subject to
distort Thomas Jefferson's deliberate definition (1802)
of the religion clauses as "building a wall of separation
between Church & State"; to omit James Madison's statements
about (1811) "the essential distinction between civil and
religious functions," (1819) "the total separation of the
Church from the State," and (before 1833) "the separation
between Religion and Government in the Constitution of
the United States"; and to skip Alexis de Tocqueville's
assertion (1835) that in America "all attributed the peaceful
dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation
of church and state."
2. The Constitution says what it means and means what it says:
"no religious test," and "no law respecting an establishment
of religion"; those statements are clearly in harmony with
Jefferson, Madison, Tocqueville, and "separation"--but not
with Mr. Barton.
For the most part you make the SAME mistake many people make
in many areas (not limited to this topic) ... you confuse words,
ideas an concepts. God does NOT necessarily mean 'Christian
God' or 'Biblical God'. Religion does NOT necessarily mean
'Christianity'.
day wrote:
John Adams, Second President:
(Speaking of July 4, 1776) - "I am apt to believe that it will
be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary
Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the day of deliverance,
by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty." 101
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending
with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our
Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." 113
Adams was a Unitarian.
You, like Barton, fail to understand the second quote AND
what religion entails.
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the
first example of governments erected on the simple principles
of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to
disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and
superstition, they will consider this event as an era in
their history. Although the detail of the formation of the
American governments is at present little known or regarded
either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an
object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any
persons employed in that service had interviews with the
gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven,
more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring
in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be
acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely
by the use of reason and the senses....
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government
of the United States of America" [1787-1788];
Find THIS book and enlighten.
day wrote:
Patrick Henry, Founding Father:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that
this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but
by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of
Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other
faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and
freedom of worship here." 102
The citation you provide is NOT primary. Elsewhere in Barton's
'scholarly efforts' he admits that such sourcing does not exist
to date. Henry was an Antifederalist.
"[The Bible] is a book worth more than all the other books
that were ever printed."
This does not support your effort. It merely states Henry's
opinion about book worth.
day wrote:
John Jay, First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court:
Providence has given to our people the choice of their
rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and
interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer
Christians for their rulers." 105
Barton says that John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United
States, desired that we should "select and prefer Christians"
for office.
There are many problems with trying to leverage this statement
into something more than it really is. While voters can choose
their candidates for any reason they deem fit, the Constitution
explicitly disallows any official religious test for public
office (Article VI). In fact, this is the only place that the
Constitution even mentions religion. George Washington himself,
in a personal letter to a church in Baltimore, penned words which
dispute Jay's ideas: "...a man's religious tenets will not forfeit
the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of
attaining and holding the highest offices that are known in the
United States." (Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the
United States, Vol. I, p. 497.)
day wrote:
Alex de Tocqueville, French historian who visited the U.S.
in the early 1800's:
<snip> de Tocqueville was NOT a founder of this nation.
day wrote:
John Quincy Adams, Sixth President (son of John Adams,
Second President):
"[T]he birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with
the birth-day of the Saviour [and] forms a leading even
in the progress of the gospel dispensation..[T]he
Declaration of Independence first organized the social
compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon
earth [and] laid the corner stone of human government
upon the first precepts of Christianity." 107
JQ Adams' opinion regarding the Declaration of Independence
is blatantly incorrect. The document dissolves government,
identifies its legitimate form and lambastes the King for
his many violations. ALL the references to THEIR Creator
and Nature's God are congruent with the by-line author AND
the purported author's religious inclination (both of which
are the same).
day wrote:
Noah Webster, Founding Father:
"[T]he religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the
religion of Christ and his apostles, which enjoins humility,
piety and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person a
brother, or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This
is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free
constitutions of government." 108
"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures
ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and
law... All the miseries and evils which men suffer from
vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and
war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts
contained in the Bible." 109
Webster is not from a framer of the Constitution
These words were written in 1828 in Webster's American Dictionary
of the English Language, and do not represent Webster's views
during the time he was agitating in favor of the Constitution.
day wrote:
Dr. Jedediah Morse, The Father of American Geography;
<snip>
The information I have does not place Morse at any of
the major events surrounding the Founding nor an avid
'propagandist' writer of the time. Perhaps you have
additional information?
day wrote:
William Holmes McGuffey, Publisher of the McGuffey Readers
a vital cornerstone of this nation's early education system:
<snip>
McGuffey was NOT a Founder.
His books did not appear until 1836.
day wrote:
Thomas Jefferson, Third President:
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we
have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds
of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?
That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just:
that his justice cannot sleep forever." 112
Jefferson was a Deist.
You again confuse what is meant by God.
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which
weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her
seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion.
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because,
if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason
than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
day wrote:
George Washington, First President:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God
and the Bible." 114
Washington was a Deist.
The citation you provide is NOT primary.
Unlike Thomas Jefferson -- and Thomas Paine, for that
matter -- Washington never even got around to recording
his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His
reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington
frequently alluded to Providence in his private
correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any
correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his
many letters to friends and associates throughout his life.
(Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas:
Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 74-75.)
day wrote:
Abraham Lincoln, Sixteenth President:
<snip>
Lincoln was NOT a founder.
He was, however, a Great admirer of Paine and also considered a
Deist.
day wrote:
Harry S. Truman, Thirty-Third President
<snip>
Truman was NOT a founder.
My suggestion is you branch out beyond what others claim and read
the ACTUAL primary documents. They may surprise you one MORE ideals
than this one. Barton is no 'scholar' but merely a revisionist.
Regard$,
--MJ
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had
on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a
spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many
instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political
tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the
liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public
liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries.
A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs
them not. -- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
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