-Caveat Lector-
> It is not a matter of "supporting" the PLO and Arafat.
> The reality is that the West Bank / Gaza situation is essentially
> one of Neo European Colonialism.
>>>>> That's one interpretation. And it's an arguable one. The Israelis are
>>>>> not European any more than you are. They are Israelis. And the West Bank,
> >>>>and Gaza are territories that were lost to Israel in a war with Arab Palestine
>>>>> A.K.A. Jordan, who was warned not to attack Israel during the Six Day War.
>>>>> They are not " occupied " by Israel. They are occupied by a conquered enemy
> >>>>population. Losers can't be choosers.
>>>>>(J2)
The European pedigree of the modern state of Israel cannot be denied.
As you say, the Palestinians are an "occupied" people. The Black South
Africans were an occupied people for several hundred years as were generations
of Algerians. Of course the Boers and the many generation Algerian born
French thought the same thing. Time and time again the Boers and French
"beat" the natives. The Boers and the French considered themselves "winners"
and the Black S. Africans and Algerians "losers." Of course History reveals
the real winners and losers. And we haven't even begun to discuss the
sordid, double dealing role the European Colonial Powers (especially Great
Britain) had in creating the state of Israel.
>>>>> How come no one is asking the USA to return Texas, Colorado, Arizona, New
>>>>> Mexico, and California to Mexico??? And, the rest of the country to the
>>>>> Indians? How come you are not?
>>>>>(J2)
I dont ask anything from anyone. As a matter of fact it becomes more apparent
every year that the Mexicans are reoccuping Tx, Colorado, Az, N. Mexico
and Calif. It would not surprise me if during this century, the US devolves into
several different, independent countries or if at least part of the above states
reattach themselves to Mexico as a result of political agitation from Mexican
Americans or illegal Mexican immigrants - a mirror replay of the founding
of the Texas Republic.
>Since WWII there have been countless "wars of National Liberation."
> These wars of national liberation are very brutal wars where terrorism is the
> most effective and common weapon - for both sides. Terrorist bombings
> by insurgents; airplane bombings by the superior military side. Torture
>is "de rigueur" by those seeking to oppress the insurgents.
> Algeria, Kenya, Viet Nam, Rhodesia, South Africa come readily to mind.
> Of course Israel itself was birthed through terrorism.
>
>
>>>>> This is NOT THE SAME AS COLONIZATION FOR PROFIT! This was a matter of
>>>>>> survival where the Palestinians paid for the sins of Christian Europe. I
>>>>>> personally think the Germany should have been given to the surviving Jews.
> >>>>>Then the Germans would be dealing with the aftermath of dispossession. That
> >>>>>would have been justice.
>>>>>>(J2)
Making a distinction between colonization for "profit" and colonization for
"survival" is specious in terms of history. Every colonizer attempts to justify
their actions. The alleged motives for the colonization are meaningless in regards
to the reaction of the colonized. I am sure the colonized say that whether you
colonize "to save souls..bring civilized enlightenment....need to take others
land for your own ....or simply take resources" makes no difference. I doubt
whether the new victims are more accepting of their victimhood because their
oppressors were once victims. For you to claim their is no "economic
motive" in the continuing occupation of the West Bank or Gaza denies reality.
The Arabs are a cheap source of labor and we haven't even begun to discuss
distorted allocation of water resources and in the Middle East water is more
important then oil.
>
>>>> That was in the first half of the last century. There is no more Palestine.
>>>>> There is Israel and Jordan. Like it or not. I think that if the Palestinians
>>>>> don't like living under the Israelis, AND they can't defeat them in order
>>>>> to change their situation, they should move to Germany.
Your time frame is silly. We are talking about never forgotten grievances (real
and imagined) that go back 1000's of years....and you speak of a few decades?
> Few observers "supported" the terrorist tactics of the insurgents or the
> status quo. As J2 points out - such is the reality of brutual conflicts -
> and the side with the highest pain tolerance usually prevails.
> Generally those with less to lose and the higher birth rate will
> win.
>
>>>>> This is a wrong analysis. The side with the greatest power will win. Either
>>>>> the power of numbers as in S. Africa, or the power of military strength.
I agree with you. Unless the Israelis decide to exterminate millions of Palestinians
(and the world placidly accepts this) their long term outlook is not good. And
without fail, in an occupied situation the side with the numbers will always beat the
militarily superior occupier. I challenge you to name one example of a militarily
superior occupier outlasting a much bigger occupied population in modern (and
ancient) history. In addition, in an occupier situation, a conventional military
power is at a disadvantage. Jet planes and massive tank attacks are useless unless
the occupier decides to bomb or smash the occupied people into oblivion.
The terrorist bomb and the sniper become the weapon of choice of both sides and
puts both sides on a more equal footing.
> As the Israelis assume a traditional European / American standard of
>living with all that entails such as glorifying a lifestyle that abhors inconvenience
>and demands instant gratification (much like the traditional colonialists living
>in their colonialist bubble) they paradoxically become weaker. For
>example it is now common for young Israelis to dodge the draft which
> was almost unheard of in the past.
*****
>>>> This was true up to a point.... But the Palestinians don't want peace.
>>>> They want Israel to disappear and return to Old Palestine.
>>>> That won't happen. And the Palestinians and all the Arab world can't make
> >>>it happen. So they didn't take the best offer they would ever get. When the
>>>> bourgie Israelis saw that, it hit home. They reverted to the survival
>>>> mentality and elected the man who was most likely to deal with the enemy
>>>> as an enemy. Sharon.
As we write this the Israeli draft dodging and desertion (refusing to report) is
increasing. Most of the secular (and many religious) Jews do not want to
risk their lives for zealots living in Fort Apache.
> The more squalid the Palestinian's conditions become - the stronger they
> become in terms of this conflict.
>
>>>> This is a ridiculous statement. The Palestinians are losing all around.
>>>> They are even losing in world opinion which is swinging against them. They
>>>> have demonstrated their true intent.
Again you are plain wrong. Survey after survey shows that the more the Israeli's
turn the screws, the more the Palestinians support the Interfada. Rightly or wrongly
throughout the world, more and more people have come to see the Palestinians as victims
and the Israelis as oppressors and occupiers. As long as the Israelis act the role
of occupiers of a conquored people, they have no moral authority. For example, on every
major college campus in the US, Canada, and Europe leftist groups are springing
up demanding sanctions against Israel and calling them oppressors and the Palestinians
victims. Again I have no dog in either camp. That is the reality. In Europe many of
your esteemed "anti capitalist demonstrators" are markedly anti Israel. I note the
recent BBC broadcast damming Sharon as an international war criminal. I note
French anti globalist demonstrators actually going to the West Bank to demonstrate
solidarity with the Palestinians.
>
>
> Perhaps the closest to the Palestinian / Israeli situation is South Africa.
>
>>>>> Not even the same ball game. This is a forced and contrived comparison
>>>>> designed to appeal to Liberals.
Your denial rings hollow. The Boers occupied S. Africa for hundreds of years.
They were a European based immigrant group who occupied much land that
already was occupied by a native population. The Boers immigrated to Africa
out of "cultural survival" .. they were religiously oppressed in Europe. As they
eventually
became swamped by native Black Africans they attempted to maintain control through
Apartheid. Israel's worst enemy is demographics.
25% NATIVE BORN Israelis are
Arab and they will outnumber the Jewish Israelis in 50 years. This of course
overlooks the millions of Palestinians who live in the "occupied" territories.
>
> >
> It is clear that Israel's long term plan is an Apartheid State. Only an
> Israeli Apartheid State could possibly survive demographic reality
> assuming Israel insists on remaining a Theocratic "ethnically pure"
> political entity.
>
>>>>>> Israel intends to remain Jewish. That's the point of it's existence. If someone
>>>>>> doesn't like it, too bad. > J2
I am sure it does. However mere intentions won't solve this problem. The only
practical solution is for Israel to evolve into a large, multi cultural, multi
religious
state. Israel can never survive long term as an exclusive, de facto racist or
Theocratic
state with an evergrowing internal non Jewish native born Arab population and millions
of occupied Arabs banging on the door. But of course if all nations did the rational
thing - history would be quite boring and I suspect that over the next years, things in
Israel / Palestine will never be boring.
flw
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