From: Zenaan Harkness <>
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:03:36PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 7/24/14, Ulex Europae <> wrote:
> > At 05:25 AM 1/17/2014, Jim Bell forwarded:
> >><<http:///>>

> NSA-proof?
To me, the problem is obviously the people who write such articles, and perhaps 
others that write the headlines, people who know far less about security even 
than those who merely frequent the Cypherpunks list.  (In better times, when 
most of the posts were on-topic.)Prior to the revelation of NSA's massive data 
farms (for instance, the one recently revealed in Utah), even the ordinary POTS 
(plain old telephone system) was 'fair' in security, in the sense that the 
large majority of the 'wheat' (the stuff the NSA wants to record, store, and 
search for) was immersed in a ton of 'chaff', the billions of phone calls made 
on a daily basis.  The government couldn't look at information that they didn't 
know existed, and didn't have a copy of.Relatively good would be encrypted 
security that cannot be (easily) broken by even the NSA.
   Even better would be a system which eliminates metadata, sort of a Tor-ized 
cell phone system.  Why doesn't that currently exist?  A start would be if the 
major cell-phone companies publicly announced that  they refuse to even collect 
such metadata, or at least it would be automatically erased at the end of each 
individual phone call.  (Since most phone billing is no longer sensitive to 
distance, or even time, why record such information in a central location?)
 Such an announcement would not be automatically believable, especially to 
cynics like us, but the long-term non-existence of news of criminal trials 
which actually admitted such evidence would tend to convince the public that 
the evidence is either not being collected at all, or at least is only being 
used secret, and not openly in criminal trials.    
> Is that even possible unless you:
> 1) personally pick up your phone off the factory
> floor production line at random?
To _us_, the cypherpunks, the answer is obviously "no".  But if just about 
everybody had phones installed with 'good' (rather than 'perfect') encryption, 
encryption that it would take a large amount of the NSA's resources to crack, 
we'd be living in a far better world than what we have now.  An even better 
addition would be a system which actually made the NSA  _FEAR_ to use such 
surveillance results.   Would the average telephone user be willing to spend 10 
cents per month to supply a fund to kill any government worker who assisted in 
the recording, storage, decrypting, or using such recorded information, 
including prosecutors, judges, and government investigators in criminal trials? 
 $25 million per month, in America, would buy 250 deaths at $100,000 each, per 
month.   Somehow, I think that this would solve the problem.   
              Jim Bell

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