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Re: Eruvin 038: Seudas Shabbos in Star Light
HG asked:
>>The Rogatchover Gaon (cited in Mefaaneach Tzefunos p. 195
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7039&st=&pgnum=200&hilite=)
proved from Tosfos that one may eat Seudas Shabbos in star light.
Where is this coming from ? Which gemara? logic?
thank you<<
The Kollel replied:
>>A. 1) I have not yet found what the Rogatchover is referring to from
Eruvin 38. I assume he means the Tosfos 38b DH v'Ha who is discussing the
Seudah Hareuyah - that the Eruv has to be fit before Shabbos as a Shabbos
meal. However there is no mention
there of stars so I still have not yet figured it out. However I should
point out that the Rogatchover does not write explicitly that he is citing
Tosfos but rather he refers to the Ri. Even though the Ri is often cited by
Tosfos it is very possible that in this case that the Ri is cited elsewhere
by the Rishonim, not actually by Tosfos.
2) However I will try and point out some other sources that the Rogatchover
mentions. He mentions a Mordecai in Pesachim 101a which goes on the Gemara
there that Abaye said that when he learnt at the Yeshiva of Mar (this
refers to Rabah) Rabah would make kidush for them and tell them to eat
something after the kidush becauseby the time they would get home there
might be no candle alight there. Mordecai writes that one learns from here
that a candle is required for kidushbut it is not required for the Shabbos
meal. This would be a support for the Ri, cited by the Rogatchover, that it
is sufficient to have star light for the Shabbos meal ,and one does not
require candle light.
3) The Rogatchover also cites the Gemara Berachos 53a. The Gemara talks
there about what sort of candle one can make Havdola on. One can make
Havdola on the candle of a shul. However this can depend on other factors.
If there is a warden there one can make Havdola on the candle because the
candle is there for him to eat using its light. However if there is
moonlight we say that the shamash could eat without the candle and it must
be that the candle was only lit for the honor of the Shechina present in
the shul and one can not make Havdola on it because the rule is
that one only makes Havdola on a candle whose light is actully needed.
Again, we learn from this Gemara that the shamash can eat his meal without
a candle if there is moonlight. This is another proof for what tthe Ri says
that one may eat Seudas Shabbos in starlight Well, as I say Reb Chaim,
these are all just initial thiughts and I cannot yet claim that I have got
to the bottom of what the Rogatchover writes. You always have to work hard
even to understand a little bit about what the Rogatchover writes, and I
hope to continue later, b'Ezer Hashem.
B.
1) Reb Chaim! It suddenly dawned on me that when the Rogatchover writes Ri,
he is referring to Rabeinu Yehonatan, on the Rif in Eruvin. This is on page
9b in the Rif pages. In DH u'Mistacher he
writes that he takes his bread with him, and he eats his Shabbos meal to
the light of the stars
2) Now that we know that the source is Rabeinu Yehonatan, let us understand
more what the Rogatchover is saying. It seems to me that he is coming to
explain the din of the Gemara Shabbos 25b that it is obligatory to light a
candle on Shabbos. The Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 30:5 writes that his candle
should be lit and his table should be laid. The Rogatchover now has a
chakira:- do we say that the candle requires a meal or do we say that the
meal requires a candle?
3) In other words, we know that one must light a candle on Friday night.
But does that mean one cannot eat the Shabbos seuda without a candle? The
Rogatchover proves from Rabeiu Yehonatan in Eruvin 38 that one can even eat
the Shabbos seuda by starlight. This must mean that one must light a candle
on Friday night, and this candle should be placed at the place where the
seuda is being eaten, but if necessary one can fulfil the mitzva of eating
a Shabbos seuda even where there is no candle.
4) Then the Rogactchover proves from Berachos 53a that the guardian of the
shul can eat his meal by moonlight as we saw in my first reply. This proves
that the candle on Friday night should be lit at the meal, but nevertheless
on can eat the meal without the candle if one has the light of the moon or
the stars
5) Then the Rogatchover cites Tosfos Pesachim 101a DH uVeKidusha from
which one sees that one cannot fulfil the Mitzva of Shabbos seuda withiut a
candle. This clearly does not agree with Rabeinu
Yehonatan. However the Rogatchover then cites the Mordecai that I mentioned
in the first reply that one can eat the seuda without the candle. This
clearly diagreees with Tosfos and is a support for Rabeinu Yehonatan.<<
---
The Kollel adds:
Now that we have seen the Rogatchover in full and explained what his
sources are, I think it is worthwhile explaining why it is not at all
obvious that everyone would agree with what the Rogatchover writes, and
that there are quite a few Chidushim lying among his tersely-phrased words.
1) Firstm it is very important to know that this whole piece of the
Rogatchover runs contrary to the views of Rashi and Tosfos! I am referring
to Rashi and Tosfos to Shabbos 25b that I cited briefly in my reply above.
Abaye there states that lighting a candle on Shabbos is obligatory. Rashi
explains that no important meal is eaten without light similar to daylight.
Rashi clearly does not agree with Rabeinu Yehonasan cited by the
Rogatchover that one may eat the Shabbos Se'udah by starlight.
2) Tosfos there (Shabbos 25b, DH Hadlakas) writes that the Gemara means
that it is obligatory to eat the Shabbos Se'udah where a candle is present.
Again, this is in contrary to the view of Rabeinu Yehonasan that the stars
are sufficient. However, now that we know what Rabeinu Yehonasan wrote, we
can notice that what Rashi and Tosfos write is not actually stated
explicitly in the Gemara. The Gemara states merely that lighting a candle
is a Chovah, but it was only Rashi and Tosfos who linked this with the
Shabbos meal. Rabeinu Yehonasan disagrees and maintains that there is not
necessarily a connection between the meal and the candle.
3) Why is it that the Rogatchover keeps the opinions of Rashi and Tosfos
hidden from us? I suggest that this is because the Rambam did not write
explicilty what his opinion is on this matter. I read once that the
Rogatchover used to call the Rambam "the Rebbi." If the Rambam did not say
anything against what he was writing, then the Rogatchover did not feel
obligated to conform with other Rishonim. When the Rambam cited the Gemara
in Shabbos 25b in Hilchos Shabbos 5:1, he did not connect at all the
Shabbos candle to the Shabbos Se'udah. In 30:5 he wrote that there should
be a candle lit and a table set, and that this is included in the honor of
Shabbos. However, he did not write explicitly that the meal must be to the
light of the candle. This may be why the Rogatchover felt free to omit the
opinions of Rashi and Tosfos (in fact, at the end he does cite Tosfos in
Pesachim 101am DH uv'Kidusha, who says that one must not eat the meal
without the candlem but then he immediately cites the Mordechai who
disagrees with Tosfos, as I wrote earlier).
I hope we have seen a little better the context within which the
Rogatchover needs to be understood.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
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