On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 8:37 AM Maurizio Paglia <mpagl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Really, I cannot understand why we cannot have a tab on which any USER can > list his/her preferred modules and can order them as per his/her preferred > workflow. > There have been several answers touching on this in this thread. You may not agree with the reasons given, but to not understand them? For example: Pascal: "Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in different way if no at the same location. That would be like saying that the mask in GIMP should be rearranged without having any impact on the final rendering. This is just plain wrong, and if you don't want to understand that or that is not the way you want the tool to be working then fine... Please use another tool. This won't change in dt because it cannot be changed." Myself: "- consistency: everything else is pipe-ordered. Having a single tab ordered not in pipe order, while the rest is, means people get confused. People confused means more work answering questions and wrongly filled bugs. Notice that the proposal linked above has a small chance to go through precisely because it's a separate 'module', which could be made clearly different from the regular tabs to convey the idea that GUI sliders order and pipe order are not related ONLY in that module. - having all tabs not in pipe-order loses the 'physical' (visual?) connection between module order and image result, which is worse. As somebody said before, you don't expect a layer-based software (like Gimp or Photoshop) to allow you to re-order the layers independently of how they will be merged (usually top to bottom). This is the same situation: pipe-order is central to how darktable works, operations are applied in a defined order, and the GUI order reflecting pipe-order is a manifestation of that (now more than ever because pipe-order can be changed)." Urs: "The user interface to reorder the pipeline is the same as you would like to have for apparent reordering (I suppose you would like to work from to to bottom). So there you have it: How would one distinguish between reordered pipeline and reordered module names?" William: "Let's say they implement a feature so the user can configure the GUI with any module order they would like, and it doesn't affect the pixel pipe. And we still have the pixelpipe that we can reorder. Then a user processes an image and it doesn't turn out the way they think it should have. On this list, as well as github, almost all of the conversations take place in English. However English isn't the first language of a lot of the devs as well as a lot of the users. So can you imagine the conversation when the user is trying to relate what order they did things in and the dev is trying to overcome the language barrier, figure out which module order the user is talking about, figure out what order the pixelpipe was in, and figure out what happened? And what happens when the dev asks the user to try a different order and the dev was talking about the pixelpipe and the user adjusts the GUI order. There is also the possibility of confusion on the part of the user when they reorder the pixelpipe thinking they were reordering the GUI. Sometimes features aren't implemented because the devs can't figure out how to support them, not because they can't implement them." parafin: "That's actually the main disagreement point - darktable team doesn't believe that raw development is something that should be done by intuition, instead 'the artist' should understand how the instrument works (e.g. how painters learn how to get specific color by mixing the available paints and which brush to use to get specific stroke width). 'The artist' should envision the result he wants to get (that's the artistic part of the process) and then use the instrument to get it, knowing how to achieve it (of course it can take some number of iterations), instead of fiddling with random sliders trying to get something that "looks good". If you want the latter, darktable is not a tool for you, there are alternatives you should try instead of asking darktable to change its concept. darktable team doesn't aim at pleasing everyone or increasing its "market share" at any cost - it doesn't make sense for free software project to have such goals when developers are doing it for fun at their spare time. Instead the goal is to maybe teach some photographers the modern way to process raw files from their cameras, getting more predictable and consistent results. It's impossible to do without some good will from the users to learn something new and to not be stuck with the habits they got from other image processing software out there." darktable github: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/7841 My concern is we are not asking to change dt GUI. > Yes, you are. Changing the "mapping GUI modules order <-> pipe order" would be a fundamental GUI change in darktable. > Only a TECHNICIAN can know very well how the pipeline works and why. > A normal user or also an advanced user (pro photographer) does not know > and, probably, does not care. > I've seen a lot of users (both new and advanced) in pixls.us doing great edits by knowing how darktable's pipe works, and how to use it to their advantage to get what they want. So let me disagree on that... I have to develop an image trying to obtain a pleasant result. > I am a photographer (a USER), not an engineer (a TECHNICIAN). > Read parafin's answer above. Best regards, Guillermo ____________________________________________________________________________ darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
