Thats a shame, Heman but not unexpected...
But I note that Tony has said that DPWeb development is in limbo, but I have
to say the current DP offers an incredible amount for web deployment (and
fit that flyweight category already.) Although you could never sell the
idea to non DP people, the fact that you can use the conventional DP
interface for visual development make it far quicker to deploy a complex,
robust web application than "conventional" database products.
And suprisingly once you have adapted to the new paradigm, placing
application logic and database quite separate from user interface is very
liberating.
Regards
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heman Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'DataPerfect Users Discussion Group'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Update: the VC group has reviewed my initial concept proposal (to solicit
the change to formally apply), and rejected it as taking too much work to
transition from a DOS based application to a Windows GUI. I discovered what
they are looking for is not only the database engine, but also the
development front-end. That have many submissions, and they rejected it out
of hand. Additional calls and explanations have not opened the door. So
I'm dropping it. Sorry.
Heman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Perez
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:25 AM
To: 'DataPerfect Users Discussion Group'
Subject: RE: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Hello Heman et al,
In case you're looking for a development app, I am working for a
Manufactured Home Park developer with properties in California and Oregon.
We're based in Marin County, California - just north of San Francisco. One
of the owners asked me earlier in the week to start looking for software to
tie all aspects of the parks - rent billing, collections, tenant profiles,
utility consumption, etc - and help us grow the business. I immediately
thought of DP and its potential, but know that DPWeb' s development is in
limbo. I am confident I can build the DP app. But taking it to a
browser-based environment is way beyond my scope. Essentially, I am not a
programmer. I possibly could be considered a "smart DP user". One product
we've been looking at is Yardi Property Management systems. You can see
their products at http://www.yardi.com/. It would be great to participate in
what you're developing. I look forward to hearing from you.
All the best,
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Heman
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:28 AM
To: 'DataPerfect Users Discussion Group'
Subject: RE: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Thanks Brian and Bruce. Let me share a bit more... I just got off the phone
with the VCs that are interested in a submitted business plan. They see a
very clear market for an innovative, fast, database "engine", ALONG WITH the
development front-end, as an integrated unit, similar to DP on DOS, and what
it would have been if DP had been finished for Windows. Similar to what
Alpha Five is now in the market, EXCEPT that A5 has no valid database engine
to use as a native ability. They use the .dbf file format, or allow you to
connect to any other ODBC or JDBC compatible engine. So, the acceptance is
slow because they aren't seen by customers as a complete, or "enterprise"
class solution.
The market is apparently for smaller and medium sized companies, in
particular, which don't have the resources, nor wish to dedicate such, to
build big Oracle shops, SQL Server or DB2 teams internally. The costs -
both immediate and long-term - can be daunting. They want a tool which can
give them similar net results with applications that can run well from both
browsers and desktops, with out big teams, big hardware, big dollars.
The VCs see, and I believe I agree, the benefit in delivering an alternative
to such massive investments. Similar to what happened when Hotmail and
Google came out. They want something disruptive, and "duh" obvious, so that
others say: "I gotta have that".
Re-engineering DP so that it, similar to MySQL, can run on various
platforms, and include a SQL language interface, and other known and
expected standards would put the engine in the performance league with MySQL
(and probably much better) for example. If the new DP solution/application
can address the various hurdles so common for companies which need to
quickly build a solution for themselves, we'll have the disruption needed.
For example, if Alpha Five's front-end application creation tool is actually
a very cool, intuitive interface, allowing marvelous application development
with little or no coding. To have something like that, tied to the truly
awesome poser of the "little DB that can", would be the winner I see.
I'm working on a proposal. And will keep in touch.
Heman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Hancock
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 3:31 PM
To: DataPerfect Users Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Hi Bruce,
I agree it would be a tough road, I work in both spheres, and I love working
with DP because it is so robust and the development time in the database is
so quick... Even when I am suggesting DP as a backend web application,
where the DOS interface is not even remotely exposed to the user, the people
who want to talk technically with you are a very hard audience.
Before the Java port, I think in the web database sphere, DP would be more
readily accepted if it could run thru IIS on Windows. I have only ever been
able to get it to run on Apache under Windows...
I have been putting my DP web apps on a Linux server running DOSEMU and the
best I can manage for loading DP, (doing nothing) and then exiting is just a
tad under 3 seconds and that can seem like a lifetime (and then you have to
add the DP report code), many database systems deliver web performance akin
to just standard file serving from a web server. (by the way Bruce, how do
you get such great pewrformance from your AJAX (AJAT) zip code sample
application? Are you using Firestorm code to drill directly to the data)
I love the DP keep a total, and the collateral things you can achieve with
it (ie automatic creation of necessary related records etc)... but two phase
commit transactions go a lot further... For example in a double entry
accounting system, you will want to post a minimum two separate records to
make up entry... but it is absolutely imperative that if something doesn't
work, that neither record is posted. But it is not just financial system,
the same need for multiple transactions to be posted as a seemingly atomic
unit occurs all over the place.
SQL has its downside and its blessings... On some of my larger systems
there are many hundreds of SQL Views/Queries and having to write a separate
DP report for each of those would be daunting. Both SQL and DP have things
the other can't do... Try creating an unknown number of columns pivot table
like report in DP, or even a sorted aggregation, which in SQL is a piece of
cake...
I would love for DP to be reinvigorated, it has so much to offer, but as you
said, the world has probably already voted on database technology.
Regards
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Conrad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "DataPerfect Users Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Hi Heman, Brian, and others,
I agree with your assessment of the value of DP technology. The main
difficulty marketing DP to the industry is that the industry has
already "made up its mind" on some issues, and is not willing to
accept innovation
that is incompatible with those decisions. Three major decisions come
to mind immediately: that it must use two phase commit, that it must
run as a
separate service, and that it must use SQL for communication between
the database server and applications.
Aside: The reluctance to accept innovation is very curious, because in
most other software areas, newness and innovation are viewed as
essential features. We joke about being on the "bleeding" edge, and
one site even calls the open source software it hosts "fresh meat". In
these other areas, your code HAS to be new to even be considered. Yet,
in the database
world, new techniques are abhorred, and will not be seriously considered.
Over the years, as I have contemplated this, I have developed answers
to each of the firm decisions of the industry.
Two phase commit? Keep-a-total handles most needs very cleanly. For
others, a change in philosophy removes the need for it. For example, a
system might use a transaction to create an invoice and all of its
line items. In DP, we would just create an empty invoice and then add
its line items to it one at a time, with KAT for a running total. No
transaction is
needed.
Separate service? The amount of code required for DP is so small, this
is not a big issue, and with DP's imperceptible use of network
bandwidth, multiple clients can operate on the data concurrently, with
high performance. Of course, applications DO have to be written to
deal with the possibility that another user might have changed/deleted a
record.
Experience with DP shows that this happens rarely and that users just
accept it and deal with it.
SQL? With SQL, the application gets multiple rows (records) from the
database server, and then has to turn around and iterate through them.
How
much cleaner it is to position to the first record in (a subset of)
the table (i.e. panel) and then process the records one at a time.
Application
programming with SQL is very tricky. Using the DP engine, it is
extremely simple.
Brian also brings up the problem that the code does not run on the
most popular operating systems for web servers. This is a very good
point, and my response would be two-fold. To first of all port it to a
language such as Java which is available everywhere. Secondly, IF
NEEDED, (parts of) it could be translated from Forth into Java or
other languages for performance reasons. Once this is done, it will
run on all web server systems.
Once in Java, the "multiple loading" problem just goes away, as DP
would become part of the servlets defining the application, and these
are loaded
only once and then used in any number of requests.
As is often the case, I believe the technical problems are far easier
to address than the social problems. The new DP will have to be
marketed as if it were something totally new and innovative. Even so,
acceptance by the marketplace seems problematic.
Why not just add SQL to the DP engine, let it run in a separate
service, and give it two phase commit? Because this is a WHOLE lot of
work--at least one order of magnitude more work than porting to Java.
Besides it is
not compatible with many of the things that make DP great--they simply
cannot be expressed in the SQL language.
I welcome this opportunity, and would be interested in being a part of
anything that develops.
Best wishes,
Bruce
Heman wrote:
Thanks Brian. I’ve not commented, hoping on some more active
interaction
from others in the group. I see the value of the DataPerfect
“engine” in
the same vein as MySQL. A robust, “flyweight” engine that can be
used as
a viable, effective alternative to the big players. The pluses of
DataPerfect we are very familiar with, and they include its small
size, its data integrity model, and its speed. I know that some real
work will
exist to finally deliver a world-class competitor in a real-world
business, but the very reason this discussion is happening is to get
others feelings about the value, and excitement about such an idea.
The very definition of what that final product would look like as a
“flyweight database” is not settled, but I believe it will be
exciting to
find out.
I have always believed that the core ability and technology of the
DP engine are a hidden jewel, deserving more than a quiet rest in
piece in obscurity.
Here is an update. I just got off the phone with the VC firm
interested
in this concept, and they have asked me to submit a formal proposal.
I will work with Lew on that. But I welcome all comments.
Heman
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Hancock
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:12 AM
*To:* DataPerfect Users Discussion Group
*Subject:* Re: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Hi Tony and others,
In regards to the flyweight database, Hernan asks is there any place
for
a non-Windows database.
Modern database products are not driven in Windows they are driven
thru the web, and as such they basically transfer text back and
forth, and the
concept of Windows or non-Windows is fairly academic. MySQL got to
the popularity it has, despite initially not having a graphical user
interface to manage it, later on it got an admin console, but
initially it was bare... When you use MySQL the interface is what
you make of the client front end.... DataPerfect can already be
considered a database without an interface when you use it across the
web, it then has a bonus of being able to use it in text mode, to
define applications, thats far far better than MySQL or other similar
databases.
I see two problems with DataPerfect in the web space... Firstly it
does
not natively run on any of the main operating systems for web servers
or database servers, and two that it runs as a CGI rather than as a
service,
which means there is costly time to load it up each call to it, and
simultaneous calls, requires multiple loading of all the code into
memory. Having said that, DPWeb is great, as low stress applications
can
be built very quickly and robustly. In terms of financial
applications, where you have many components forming a transaction,
the lack of two phase commit, (either they all get saved or none gets
saved) would be a worrying in terms of making a web based financial
system.
Regards
Brian
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Tony Perez <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* 'DataPerfect Users Discussion Group'
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 06, 2006 4:11 PM
*Subject:* RE: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Heman & Lew ... this is a very interesting discussion that I hope
many DP'ers will chime into. Draper is a very well known and
respected name in the VC community. If they are calling out for a
"flyweight database", there must be a reason. A saying in Spanish
states "cuando el rio suena, agua lleva" ... "when the river sounds,
it carries water".
Coincidentally with this "nugget" are the article in the August 16,
2006 issue of Forbes regarding Larry Ellison's stronghold on Oracle
and an assignment I've been working on since May.
I encourage all DP'ers to read the Forbes article as it addresses
issues that open windows for applications such as we all grasp as
DPWeb.
As to the assignment, I consult with a developer of manufactured
home parks. These parks are gaining popularity as affordable housing
in areas such as California where home prices are out-of-reach for
the great majority. I was asked today to put together a "billing
system" using QuickBooks. I can plough through QB and get somewhere
with the billing system. But I know, I can do more for our
long-term needs and growth using an internet version of DP.
I cannot forget those wonderful uses of DP we saw at the Conference
in Huntington Beach ... coincidentally ... Labor Day weekend 2004
... and the enthusiasm the collateral interfaces of the tow truck
operation in Arizona and Colin's and Brian's brilliant work in the
southern hemisphere produced.
I am definitely interested in thrusting my development efforts to a
DPWeb solution. I look forward to our community's comments.
All the best to all,
Tony
-----Original Message-----
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Heman
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:35 PM
*To:* 'DataPerfect Users Discussion Group'
*Subject:* RE: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
My guess is, and I’ve not visited with these guys directly yet,
though I’ve sought audience, is the handheld market, embedded
markets, etc.
Heman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Don
Friedman
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:26 PM
*To:* DataPerfect Users Discussion Group
*Subject:* Re: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
Heman,
Great to see you around. Been a long time.
I wondered whatever happened to the flyweight database market.
Is anyone out there making money at it? And what makes us think
that a non-windows DP could have a place there?
Don Friedman
Pittsburgh, PA
On 9/5/06, *Heman* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Guys, I just had a fun conversation with Lew. He and I
discussed an article in the September issue of Business 2.0, the
20 Smartest Companies To Start Now. Number 2 in the article is
a VC looking for a flyweight database. The article isn't posted
online yet as I write this, but could be shortly. Lew and I
would like any and all comments back regarding DataPerfect's fit
in addressing the need stated here. Bruce & Thom, would you two
comment and engage on this discussion in particular? Thanks,
In a nutshell, the article states: Draper (the VC) loves
startups that can upend corporate giants with simple products
and cheap technology. Oracle, IBM, and Microsoft have had a
stranglehold on the $13.8 billion database business for more
than a decade, and while newer players like MySQL are making a
dent, Draper thinks there's an opening for a startup that can
deliver most of the benefits of standard Big Blue products
without millions of lines of code or an army of consultants and
IT managers.
This little article blurb lends me to think (and Lew as well)
that DP would play well here. We intend to discover the reality
of that. So please chime in and give some input and feedback.
I've started my investigation to discover more specifically what
this guy is looking for, and preparing for a presentation to
them. Thanks,
Heman
+1.801.368.9398
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Don Friedman
ProfessionalRecords.Com LLC
PRS Data Systems
205 S Main Street
Pittsburgh, PA 15215
412-784-1600 - 1-800-PRS-FILE
412-784-1615 Fax
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