Hi Bruce,
I agree it would be a tough road, I work in both spheres, and I love
working
with DP because it is so robust and the development time in the database
is
so quick... Even when I am suggesting DP as a backend web application,
where the DOS interface is not even remotely exposed to the user, the
people
who want to talk technically with you are a very hard audience.
Before the Java port, I think in the web database sphere, DP would be more
readily accepted if it could run thru IIS on Windows. I have only ever
been
able to get it to run on Apache under Windows...
I have been putting my DP web apps on a Linux server running DOSEMU and
the
best I can manage for loading DP, (doing nothing) and then exiting is just
a
tad under 3 seconds and that can seem like a lifetime (and then you have
to
add the DP report code), many database systems deliver web performance
akin
to just standard file serving from a web server. (by the way Bruce, how
do
you get such great pewrformance from your AJAX (AJAT) zip code sample
application? Are you using Firestorm code to drill directly to the data)
I love the DP keep a total, and the collateral things you can achieve with
it (ie automatic creation of necessary related records etc)... but two
phase
commit transactions go a lot further... For example in a double entry
accounting system, you will want to post a minimum two separate records to
make up entry... but it is absolutely imperative that if something
doesn't
work, that neither record is posted. But it is not just financial system,
the same need for multiple transactions to be posted as a seemingly atomic
unit occurs all over the place.
SQL has its downside and its blessings... On some of my larger systems
there are many hundreds of SQL Views/Queries and having to write a
separate
DP report for each of those would be daunting. Both SQL and DP have things
the other can't do... Try creating an unknown number of columns pivot
table
like report in DP, or even a sorted aggregation, which in SQL is a piece
of
cake...
I would love for DP to be reinvigorated, it has so much to offer, but as
you
said, the world has probably already voted on database technology.
Regards
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Conrad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "DataPerfect Users Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
> Hi Heman, Brian, and others,
>
> I agree with your assessment of the value of DP technology. The main
> difficulty marketing DP to the industry is that the industry has already
> "made up its mind" on some issues, and is not willing to accept
innovation
> that is incompatible with those decisions. Three major decisions come to
> mind immediately: that it must use two phase commit, that it must run as
a
> separate service, and that it must use SQL for communication between the
> database server and applications.
>
> Aside: The reluctance to accept innovation is very curious, because in
> most other software areas, newness and innovation are viewed as
essential
> features. We joke about being on the "bleeding" edge, and one site even
> calls the open source software it hosts "fresh meat". In these other
> areas, your code HAS to be new to even be considered. Yet, in the
database
> world, new techniques are abhorred, and will not be seriously
considered.
>
> Over the years, as I have contemplated this, I have developed answers to
> each of the firm decisions of the industry.
>
> Two phase commit? Keep-a-total handles most needs very cleanly. For
> others, a change in philosophy removes the need for it. For example, a
> system might use a transaction to create an invoice and all of its line
> items. In DP, we would just create an empty invoice and then add its
line
> items to it one at a time, with KAT for a running total. No transaction
is
> needed.
>
> Separate service? The amount of code required for DP is so small, this
is
> not a big issue, and with DP's imperceptible use of network bandwidth,
> multiple clients can operate on the data concurrently, with high
> performance. Of course, applications DO have to be written to deal with
> the possibility that another user might have changed/deleted a record.
> Experience with DP shows that this happens rarely and that users just
> accept it and deal with it.
>
> SQL? With SQL, the application gets multiple rows (records) from the
> database server, and then has to turn around and iterate through them.
How
> much cleaner it is to position to the first record in (a subset of) the
> table (i.e. panel) and then process the records one at a time.
Application
> programming with SQL is very tricky. Using the DP engine, it is
extremely
> simple.
>
> Brian also brings up the problem that the code does not run on the most
> popular operating systems for web servers. This is a very good point,
and
> my response would be two-fold. To first of all port it to a language
such
> as Java which is available everywhere. Secondly, IF NEEDED, (parts of)
it
> could be translated from Forth into Java or other languages for
> performance reasons. Once this is done, it will run on all web server
> systems.
>
> Once in Java, the "multiple loading" problem just goes away, as DP would
> become part of the servlets defining the application, and these are
loaded
> only once and then used in any number of requests.
>
> As is often the case, I believe the technical problems are far easier to
> address than the social problems. The new DP will have to be marketed as
> if it were something totally new and innovative. Even so, acceptance by
> the marketplace seems problematic.
>
> Why not just add SQL to the DP engine, let it run in a separate service,
> and give it two phase commit? Because this is a WHOLE lot of work--at
> least one order of magnitude more work than porting to Java. Besides it
is
> not compatible with many of the things that make DP great--they simply
> cannot be expressed in the SQL language.
>
> I welcome this opportunity, and would be interested in being a part of
> anything that develops.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bruce
>
> Heman wrote:
>> Thanks Brian. I've not commented, hoping on some more active
interaction
>> from others in the group. I see the value of the DataPerfect "engine"
in
>> the same vein as MySQL. A robust, "flyweight" engine that can be used
as
>> a viable, effective alternative to the big players. The pluses of
>> DataPerfect we are very familiar with, and they include its small size,
>> its data integrity model, and its speed. I know that some real work
will
>> exist to finally deliver a world-class competitor in a real-world
>> business, but the very reason this discussion is happening is to get
>> others feelings about the value, and excitement about such an
idea. The
>> very definition of what that final product would look like as a
>> "flyweight database" is not settled, but I believe it will be exciting
to
>> find out.
>>
>> I have always believed that the core ability and technology of the DP
>> engine are a hidden jewel, deserving more than a quiet rest in piece in
>> obscurity.
>>
>> Here is an update. I just got off the phone with the VC firm
interested
>> in this concept, and they have asked me to submit a formal proposal. I
>> will work with Lew on that. But I welcome all comments.
>>
>> Heman
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Hancock
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:12 AM
>> *To:* DataPerfect Users Discussion Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
>>
>> Hi Tony and others,
>>
>> In regards to the flyweight database, Hernan asks is there any place
for
>> a non-Windows database.
>>
>> Modern database products are not driven in Windows they are driven
thru
>> the web, and as such they basically transfer text back and forth, and
the
>> concept of Windows or non-Windows is fairly academic. MySQL got to the
>> popularity it has, despite initially not having a graphical user
>> interface to manage it, later on it got an admin console, but initially
>> it was bare... When you use MySQL the interface is what you make of
the
>> client front end.... DataPerfect can already be considered a database
>> without an interface when you use it across the web, it then has a
bonus
>> of being able to use it in text mode, to define applications, thats far
>> far better than MySQL or other similar databases.
>>
>> I see two problems with DataPerfect in the web space... Firstly it
does
>> not natively run on any of the main operating systems for web servers
or
>> database servers, and two that it runs as a CGI rather than as a
service,
>> which means there is costly time to load it up each call to it, and
>> simultaneous calls, requires multiple loading of all the code into
>> memory. Having said that, DPWeb is great, as low stress applications
can
>> be built very quickly and robustly. In terms of financial applications,
>> where you have many components forming a transaction, the lack of two
>> phase commit, (either they all get saved or none gets saved) would be a
>> worrying in terms of making a web based financial system.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Tony Perez <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> *To:* 'DataPerfect Users Discussion Group'
>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 06, 2006 4:11 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
>>
>> Heman & Lew ... this is a very interesting discussion that I hope
>> many DP'ers will chime into. Draper is a very well known and
>> respected name in the VC community. If they are calling out for a
>> "flyweight database", there must be a reason. A saying in Spanish
>> states "cuando el rio suena, agua lleva" ... "when the river
sounds,
>> it carries water".
>>
>> Coincidentally with this "nugget" are the article in the August
16,
>> 2006 issue of Forbes regarding Larry Ellison's stronghold on Oracle
>> and an assignment I've been working on since May.
>>
>> I encourage all DP'ers to read the Forbes article as it addresses
>> issues that open windows for applications such as we all grasp as
>> DPWeb.
>>
>> As to the assignment, I consult with a developer of manufactured
>> home parks. These parks are gaining popularity as affordable
housing
>> in areas such as California where home prices are out-of-reach for
>> the great majority. I was asked today to put together a "billing
>> system" using QuickBooks. I can plough through QB and get somewhere
>> with the billing system. But I know, I can do more for our
>> long-term needs and growth using an internet version of DP.
>>
>> I cannot forget those wonderful uses of DP we saw at the
Conference
>> in Huntington Beach ... coincidentally ... Labor Day weekend 2004
>> ... and the enthusiasm the collateral interfaces of the tow truck
>> operation in Arizona and Colin's and Brian's brilliant work in the
>> southern hemisphere produced.
>>
>> I am definitely interested in thrusting my development efforts to
a
>> DPWeb solution. I look forward to our community's comments.
>>
>> All the best to all,
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Heman
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:35 PM
>> *To:* 'DataPerfect Users Discussion Group'
>> *Subject:* RE: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
>>
>> My guess is, and I've not visited with these guys directly yet,
>> though I've sought audience, is the handheld market, embedded
>> markets, etc.
>>
>> Heman
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Don
>> Friedman
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:26 PM
>> *To:* DataPerfect Users Discussion Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [Dataperf] Flyweight Database
>>
>> Heman,
>>
>> Great to see you around. Been a long time.
>>
>> I wondered whatever happened to the flyweight database market.
>> Is anyone out there making money at it? And what makes us think
>> that a non-windows DP could have a place there?
>>
>> Don Friedman
>> Pittsburgh, PA
>>
>> On 9/5/06, *Heman* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>>
>> Guys, I just had a fun conversation with Lew. He and I
>> discussed an article in the September issue of Business 2.0,
the
>> 20 Smartest Companies To Start Now. Number 2 in the article is
>> a VC looking for a flyweight database. The article isn't
posted
>> online yet as I write this, but could be shortly. Lew and I
>> would like any and all comments back regarding DataPerfect's
fit
>> in addressing the need stated here. Bruce & Thom, would you
two
>> comment and engage on this discussion in particular? Thanks,
>>
>> In a nutshell, the article states: Draper (the VC) loves
>> startups that can upend corporate giants with simple products
>> and cheap technology. Oracle, IBM, and Microsoft have had a
>> stranglehold on the $13.8 billion database business for more
>> than a decade, and while newer players like MySQL are making a
>> dent, Draper thinks there's an opening for a startup that can
>> deliver most of the benefits of standard Big Blue products
>> without millions of lines of code or an army of consultants and
>> IT managers.
>>
>> This little article blurb lends me to think (and Lew as well)
>> that DP would play well here. We intend to discover the
reality
>> of that. So please chime in and give some input and feedback.
>> I've started my investigation to discover more specifically what
>> this guy is looking for, and preparing for a presentation to
>> them. Thanks,
>>
>> Heman
>>
>> +1.801.368.9398
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Don Friedman
>> ProfessionalRecords.Com LLC
>> PRS Data Systems
>> 205 S Main Street
>> Pittsburgh, PA 15215
>> 412-784-1600 - 1-800-PRS-FILE
>> 412-784-1615 Fax
>>
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>>
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>>
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