On 3 December 2013 20:49, Andrea Di Menna <[email protected]> wrote: > 2013/12/3 Jona Christopher Sahnwaldt <[email protected]> >> >> On 3 December 2013 18:19, Andrea Di Menna <[email protected]> wrote: >> > 2013/12/3 Jona Christopher Sahnwaldt <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> On 3 December 2013 16:54, Andrea Di Menna <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> >> > >> >> > I agree with JC that probably UriPolicy is not the best place. >> >> >> >> I guess extending UriPolicy looks attractive because modifying >> >> literals has some common needs with modifying URIs. But we should >> >> rather introduce a new class StringLiteralPolicy or so and move some >> >> code from UriPolicy to a common base class. Maybe we can share the >> >> policy parsing code etc. But literals and URIs are quite different and >> >> should probably be handled by different classes. >> >> >> >> Maybe we need a new Destination subclass too (or instead). Actually, >> >> if we follow YAGNI and KISS principles we should simply use a >> >> SerbianTransliterationDestination... >> >> >> >> > As per Uros use case I understand that what he would like to obtain >> >> > is a >> >> > duplication of quads. >> >> > Probably this should be done in the Formatters or maybe as a >> >> > post-processing >> >> > operation? >> >> > >> >> > The problem is the following: >> >> > - some languages are officially digraphic, that is they can use two >> >> > different scripts (e.g. latin and cyrillic scripts) >> >> > - Serbian (sr) is a digraphic language (latin and cyrillic) >> >> > - Serbian wikipedia allows users to see articles in latin and >> >> > cyrillic, >> >> > e.g. >> >> > cyrillic: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > https://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-ec/%D0%93%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BB_(%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%81) >> >> > latin: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > https://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%93%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BB_(%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%81) >> >> > - wikipedia dumps do not contain both versions but only cyrillic in >> >> > 99% >> >> > of >> >> > the cases >> >> > - if you were to extract string objects from the sr dump you would >> >> > get >> >> > cyrillic almost everywhere, for labels or for template property >> >> > values >> >> >> >> I just looked at a few pages in the Serbian Wikipedia. >> >> >> >> There is a piece of MediaWiki syntax that I hadn't seen before: >> >> wrapping text in -{...}- keeps it from being transliterated. In an >> >> ideal world, we would extend the DBpedia parser to handle this... >> >> >> >> There are actually three ways a Serbian Wikipedia page can be >> >> displayed: unchanged, transliterated to Cyrillic, transliterated to >> >> Latin. For example, I put this wiki text on my Serbian Wikipedia user >> >> page: >> >> >> >> Unprotected: Test >> >> Protected: -{Test}- >> >> Unprotected: Парсер >> >> Protected: -{Парсер}- >> >> >> >> Depending on the URL, it is displayed in in different ways: >> >> >> >> http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корисник:Chrisahn or >> >> http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr/Корисник:Chrisahn - unmodified >> >> >> >> Unprotected: Test >> >> Protected: Test >> >> Unprotected: Парсер >> >> Protected: Парсер >> >> >> >> http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-ec/Корисник:Chrisahn - transliterated to >> >> Cyrillic unless protected >> >> >> >> Унпротецтед: Тест >> >> Протецтед: Test >> >> Унпротецтед: Парсер >> >> Протецтед: Парсер >> >> >> >> http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/Корисник:Chrisahn - transliterated to >> >> Latin unless protected >> >> >> >> Unprotected: Test >> >> Protected: Test >> >> Unprotected: Parser >> >> Protected: Парсер >> >> >> > >> > But still the content in the dumps will be the same, i.e. the wikitext >> > you >> > have saved in your page. >> > No matter how you render it on the Mediawiki instance which hosts it. >> > Correct? >> >> Correct. >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Uros is wondering what would happen if a serbian user searches using >> >> > for >> >> > example the latin transliterated version of a cyrillic label (e.g. >> >> > using >> >> > SPARQL on Virtuoso for example). >> >> > Their search would probably fail (unless Virtuoso implements >> >> > transliteration >> >> > on-the-fly). >> >> > >> >> > Romanization or Cyrillization are transliteration methods which are >> >> > also >> >> > available through ICU4J >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > [http://icu-project.org/apiref/icu4j/com/ibm/icu/text/Transliterator.html] >> >> >> >> Looks good, but is there an implementation for Serbian? If there >> >> isn't, this probably won't help us much. Not enough to justify adding >> >> ICU4J as a new dependency, I think. >> >> >> > >> > Yes there is a Transliterator with ID "Serbian-Latin/BGN" (a list here >> > >> > http://www.avajava.com/tutorials/lessons/what-are-the-system-transliterators-available-with-icu4j.html, >> > don't know if this is still valid) >> > I have made some quick tests and it seems to work OK. >> >> Cool! >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > I think it does not make sense to transliterate URIs but only string >> >> > typed >> >> > values. >> >> >> >> I don't know. Wikipedia seems to have some elaborate rules in place as >> >> far as Latin/Cyrillic URLs are concerned. Maybe we should follow these >> >> rules too? >> >> >> > >> > Are the "preserve" rules also applied to wikilinks? If they are not then >> > I >> > think we should not apply transliteration to URIs. >> >> According to a few tests on my user page, the text (title) displayed >> for a Wiki link is transliterated unless it's "protected" by -{...}-. >> The actual link target is *always* the Cyrillic version, even if the >> wiki text contains the Latin article name. Example: [[Johan Volfgang >> Gete]] always results in a link to >> http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Јохан_Волфганг_Гете . > > > You're right (as usual ;)) > I suppose the mediawiki instance transliterates the text in the wikilink and > connects to the > cyrillic page on-the-fly, if it exists. > I think maybe Uros can help us understand what happens when you create a > page, whether > you have to use a cyrillic title or you can also insert a latin title. > Also, would be interesting to understand if the mediawiki instance > transliterates latin titles > on page creation.
That's controlled by the __NOTITLECONVERT__ magic word. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words . The Serbian variants of the magic word are __БЕЗКН__ and __BEZKN__ . See https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Fcore.git/master/languages%2Fmessages%2FMessagesSr_ec.php Example: http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII isn't transliterated to http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/АСЦИИ . On the contrary: [[АСЦИИ]] is rendered as a link to http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII . As usual with MediaWiki, the devil is very much in the details. > One approach could be to create owl:sameAs triples linking cyrillic > resources to latin resources, > and then ignoring transliteration for URIs... > >> >> If we want DBpedia to use the same policy, then we *should* >> transliterate URIs. Currently, we always use the link target as it's >> in the wiki source text. Example: for [[Johan Volfgang Gete]], we >> generate a link to http://sr.dbpedia.org/resource/Johan_Volfgang_Gete >> . To be consistent with Wikipedia, the link should point to >> http://sr.dbpedia.org/resource/Јохан_Волфганг_Гете instead. >> > > See above. > >> >> The main problem I see with transliterating URIs is configuration. >> That's one of the main problems of DBpedia anyway. We're putting too >> much effort into parsing configuration files. To allow transliteration >> of URIs, we have to extend the UriPolicy syntax and parser, which is >> already pretty convoluted anyway. If we used something like Spring >> instead of self-made configuration stuff, we would simply add a class >> and reference the class in the configuration. Additionally, we should >> use different configuration objects for each language. That doesn't >> have to mean that we need a separate configuration file for each >> language, just that we have to initialize the extraction framework >> differently for each language. This would also make UriPolicy >> configuration easier. >> >> JC > > > I am with you :) > What about Typesafe Config? [1] > > [1] https://github.com/typesafehub/config > > Andrea > >> >> >> > >> > Cheers! >> > Andrea >> > >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> JC >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Cheers >> >> > Andrea >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 2013/12/3 Jona Christopher Sahnwaldt <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't think UriPolicy is a good place to do this... >> >> >> >> >> >> But anyway, I don't understand the problem yet. :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Uros, you wrote about ISO 8859-2 and ISO 15924. >> >> >> >> >> >> ISO 8859-2 is a character encoding, but I'm pretty sure that >> >> >> Wikipedia >> >> >> is not using it, and I know that DBpedia is not using it. I think >> >> >> Wikipedia uses UTF-8 all over the place. I know that the Wikipedia >> >> >> XML >> >> >> dumps are UTF-8 encoded, and so are the DBpedia dumps. >> >> >> >> >> >> ISO 15924 is not a character encoding, but a way to specify the >> >> >> names >> >> >> of scripts. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15924 >> >> >> >> >> >> What would romanization or cyrillization do exactly? Is there a >> >> >> one-to-one mapping between letters? Or letter sequences? >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> JC >> >> >> >> >> >> On 3 December 2013 16:02, Dimitris Kontokostas <[email protected]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Hi Uros, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Don't worry, as we said we are here to help if you get stuck;) we >> >> >> > all >> >> >> > started like this. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > If you look at the formatters package you will understand what's >> >> >> > going >> >> >> > on. >> >> >> > We have formatters that write a triple based on some policies we >> >> >> > define. >> >> >> > We parse the policies at runtime, create formatters based on these >> >> >> > policies >> >> >> > and feed them to destinations. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I think we should generalize URIPolicy to TriplePolicy and create >> >> >> > a >> >> >> > "transliterate" action. >> >> >> > I made a change in the URIPolicy code to make it more descriptive >> >> >> > [1] >> >> >> > Right now we have support only for URIs but if you change the >> >> >> > following >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > should be a good start to make your changes >> >> >> > >> >> >> > //String: Uri or Literal, Boolean: is URI or not, String: output >> >> >> > (new >> >> >> > URI >> >> >> > or transliterated string) >> >> >> > type Policy = (String, Boolean) => String >> >> >> > >> >> >> > type PolicyApplicable = (String, Boolean) => Boolean >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I also submitted a feature request [2], you can make a proper >> >> >> > description >> >> >> > and continue the discussion there >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Cheers, >> >> >> > Dimitris >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > [1] https://github.com/dbpedia/extraction-framework/pull/131 >> >> >> > [2] https://github.com/dbpedia/extraction-framework/issues/130 >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Uros Milosevic >> >> >> > <[email protected]> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Andrea/Dimitris, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks for the tips. Actually, when I said I was no core expert, >> >> >> >> I >> >> >> >> meant I >> >> >> >> was an absolute beginner. :) I wanted to go with an extractor >> >> >> >> because >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> seemed simpler (and safer) than meddling with the core. Most of >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> stuff >> >> >> >> in there still seems rather confusing, but I'll look into it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> So, the UriPolicy code is where the triples get written (pointer >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> exact line, anyone?), or is this simply where you'd like to place >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> new >> >> >> >> code? Also, would "UriPolicy" remain an adequate name for the >> >> >> >> class, >> >> >> >> then? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Uros >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Maybe something like: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > script.sr=sr-Cyrl:identity;sr-Latn:Serbian-Latin/BGN >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > where you specify a list of (languageTag:transliterator) >> >> >> >> > separated >> >> >> >> > by >> >> >> >> > ';' >> >> >> >> > for one language? >> >> >> >> > The transliterator could be either "identity" (no >> >> >> >> > transformation) >> >> >> >> > or >> >> >> >> > a >> >> >> >> > icu4j transliterator-ID. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > As Dimitris said, Uros please feel free to ask if you need >> >> >> >> > help! >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Cheers >> >> >> >> > Andrea >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > 2013/11/30 Dimitris Kontokostas <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Andrea Di Menna >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hello Uros, >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> that's a really interesting problem :) >> >> >> >> >>> I am no expert either but probably the best approach would be >> >> >> >> >>> to >> >> >> >> >>> "duplicate" triples when they are going to be written (e.g. >> >> >> >> >>> in >> >> >> >> >>> the >> >> >> >> >>> destinations package), instead of modifying the extractors. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I agree, I'd suggest we extend the UriPolicy [1] functionality >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> do >> >> >> >> >> string object transformations (now it only applies to URIs / >> >> >> >> >> IRIs) >> >> >> >> >> and use the configuration files to select the desired output >> >> >> >> >> [2]. >> >> >> >> >> Uros, do you want to give it a shot? You can always ask for >> >> >> >> >> help >> >> >> >> >> here >> >> >> >> >> ;) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [1] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> https://github.com/dbpedia/extraction-framework/blob/master/core/src/main/scala/org/dbpedia/extraction/destinations/formatters/UriPolicy.scala >> >> >> >> >> [2] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> https://github.com/dbpedia/extraction-framework/blob/master/dump/extraction.default.properties#L130 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> For what regards which tools to use, it looks like icu4j >> >> >> >> >>> Translitterator >> >> >> >> >>> suits your needs, e.g. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Transliterator.getInstance("Serbian-Latin/BGN").transliterate("Малакор >> >> >> >> >>> 5 >> >> >> >> >>> (енгл. Malachor V) је измишљена планета у >> >> >> >> >>> универзуму Ратова звезда.") >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> results in >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Malakor 5 (engl. Malachor V) je izmišljena planeta u >> >> >> >> >>> univerzumu >> >> >> >> >>> Ratova >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> zvezda. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> What do you think? >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Cheers >> >> >> >> >>> Andrea >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> 2013/11/29 Uros Milosevic <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As some of you may know, a Serbian version of DBpedia is >> >> >> >> >>>> currently >> >> >> >> >>>> in >> >> >> >> >>>> the >> >> >> >> >>>> works. Now, Serbian, unlike any other language in Europe, is >> >> >> >> >>>> digraphic >> >> >> >> >>>> in >> >> >> >> >>>> nature, officially supporting both (Serbian) Cyrillic and >> >> >> >> >>>> (Gaj's) >> >> >> >> >>>> Latin >> >> >> >> >>>> alphabet. This is absolutely fine for storing information in >> >> >> >> >>>> any >> >> >> >> >>>> modern >> >> >> >> >>>> knowledge base, but can often be a major obstacle for >> >> >> >> >>>> information >> >> >> >> >>>> retrieval. >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> For instance, most Serbs rely on the Latin alphabet for >> >> >> >> >>>> communication/interaction on the Web. That means a large >> >> >> >> >>>> portion >> >> >> >> >>>> of >> >> >> >> >>>> the >> >> >> >> >>>> information is (and, often, expected to be) encoded in ISO >> >> >> >> >>>> 8859-2 >> >> >> >> >>>> (i.e. >> >> >> >> >>>> Latin-2). And, yet, 99% of the information in the Serbian >> >> >> >> >>>> Wikipedia >> >> >> >> >>>> dumps >> >> >> >> >>>> is encoded in ISO 15924 (i.e. Cyrillic). So, unless your >> >> >> >> >>>> software >> >> >> >> >>>> performs >> >> >> >> >>>> romanization (i.e. converts Cyrillic to Latin) or >> >> >> >> >>>> cyrillization >> >> >> >> >>>> (i.e. >> >> >> >> >>>> vice >> >> >> >> >>>> versa) on-the-fly, at retrieval time (Wikipedia appears to >> >> >> >> >>>> be >> >> >> >> >>>> doing >> >> >> >> >>>> this), >> >> >> >> >>>> many attempts at information extraction will be doomed to >> >> >> >> >>>> fail. >> >> >> >> >>>> This >> >> >> >> >>>> directly affects common tasks such as keyword search, >> >> >> >> >>>> label-based >> >> >> >> >>>> SPARQL >> >> >> >> >>>> querying, named entity recognition, etc. >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> What I would like to do is improve some of the existing >> >> >> >> >>>> DBpedia >> >> >> >> >>>> extractors, or develop new ones, that would take this >> >> >> >> >>>> problem >> >> >> >> >>>> into >> >> >> >> >>>> consideration and perform romanization of Wikipedia dumps so >> >> >> >> >>>> as >> >> >> >> >>>> to >> >> >> >> >>>> output >> >> >> >> >>>> information encoded in *both* scripts. Now, I know storing >> >> >> >> >>>> the >> >> >> >> >>>> same >> >> >> >> >>>> information twice might not be the most elegant solution, >> >> >> >> >>>> but >> >> >> >> >>>> unless >> >> >> >> >>>> someone is to include romanization/cyrillization features in >> >> >> >> >>>> the >> >> >> >> >>>> next >> >> >> >> >>>> version of SPARQL, I don't see a better solution at the >> >> >> >> >>>> moment. >> >> >> >> >>>> Of >> >> >> >> >>>> course, >> >> >> >> >>>> there is also the matter of perspective - one could argue >> >> >> >> >>>> that >> >> >> >> >>>> although >> >> >> >> >>>> the information is the same, the very fact that different >> >> >> >> >>>> character >> >> >> >> >>>> sequences are needed to describe the same piece of knowledge >> >> >> >> >>>> makes >> >> >> >> >>>> this >> >> >> >> >>>> problem fall into the domain of multilinguality. >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> So, the general idea is to use a single IRI per resource, >> >> >> >> >>>> but >> >> >> >> >>>> have >> >> >> >> >>>> two >> >> >> >> >>>> separate triples for any literal originally encoded in >> >> >> >> >>>> cyrillic. >> >> >> >> >>>> For >> >> >> >> >>>> example: >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> < >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> http://sr.dbpedia.org/resource/Парсер<http://sr.dbpedia.org/resource/П&%231072;&%231088;&%231089;&%231077;&%231088> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> ;> >> >> >> >> >>>> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#label> >> >> >> >> >>>> "Парсер"@sr-Cyrl . >> >> >> >> >>>> < >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> http://sr.dbpedia.org/resource/Парсер<http://sr.dbpedia.org/resource/П&%231072;&%231088;&%231089;&%231077;&%231088> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> ;> >> >> >> >> >>>> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#label> >> >> >> >> >>>> "Parser"@sr-Latn . >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The above language tags are as per IANA Language Subtag >> >> >> >> >>>> Registry >> >> >> >> >>>> [1], >> >> >> >> >>>> which lists them as redundant, though, so a "sr" tag, >> >> >> >> >>>> instead, >> >> >> >> >>>> could >> >> >> >> >>>> be >> >> >> >> >>>> enough for both. >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'm no DBpedia core expert, so some tips, ideas, directions >> >> >> >> >>>> or >> >> >> >> >>>> any >> >> >> >> >>>> other >> >> >> >> >>>> information that would help me get started would be much >> >> >> >> >>>> appreciated! >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Best, >> >> >> >> >>>> Uros >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> [1] >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >>>> Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your >> >> >> >> >>>> business. >> >> >> >> >>>> Most >> >> >> >> >>>> IT >> >> >> >> >>>> organizations don't have a clear picture of how application >> >> >> >> >>>> performance >> >> >> >> >>>> affects their revenue. 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