Hi Nicholas, On 29/11/2025 03:21, Nicholas D Steeves wrote: > Hi Simon, > > Simon Pilkington <[email protected]> writes: > >> As a system administrator I'd prefer it if maintainer scripts didn't create >> potentially junk files on every upgrade, especially since there is no way to >> opt-out of their execution. I've successfully self-managed my configs since I >> started using borgmatic (years ago), and don't recall a case when an >> intervention was needed because backups stopped working. > > It sounds like you were and are using the core, stable features that > didn't change, and I understand the desire for an escape hatch for > someone who doesn't want any config-handling niceties. How do you > manage all the other .dpkg-dist and .dpkg-old files, by the way? >
In almost all other cases when dpkg finds a modified config, it notifies the user and asks if the new config should be installed or the existing one kept (thus creating the aforementioned files). When this happens I'll inspect what's changed in the packaged config, alter mine as needed and then dispose of the .dpkg-* files. Here the idea seems to have been to produce them on every upgrade which seemed like a lot of junk files to me. I don't find the idea of .dpkg-* files objectionable per se. > [snip definitions of options] > >> If a user ignores NEWS, then an automatically upgraded config file (as in a) >> won't help because the user won't know about it. b) and c) are both >> problematic >> (c more so) because bugs can and do happen. > > As someone who tracks sid or testing, you are part of the noble class of > users who defend those of Debian stable+1 from this class of "bugs can > and do happen". If nobody tests config file migration then Debian > stable users have no real-world coverage for this feature. Don't worry, I do use the config migration function (I believe often enough that any bug I find wouldn't escape testing). I'd just rather not have it run automatically on every package upgrade. > >> Moreover, automatic config upgrade >> has already proved clunky as per #1121514. > > How else do you realistically interpret "preliminary support" (see > changelog)? Release early, release often, there will be bugs, get > feedback, compromise, and make it better. Would you please review the > update[s] to #1121514 before your next reply to this UX one? Andrey > mentioned a feature that I realised could be used to provide a fifth > option, and I'll think you'll like it! :) Yes, fair point about preliminary support. I'm of the opinion that by trying to handle too many situations automatically we end up creating problems instead of solving them so I ended up latching onto an example too early. I checked your message on #1121514 (not quoting here) and you're right, I like it. Thumbs up. If you leave borgmatic.d alone, that takes care of my objections. Another option I'd be fine with is to migrate borgmatic.d but leave any subdirs in it alone. > >> Therefore I prefer d). Not ignoring NEWS is the user's responsibility, as is >> making sure critical services (such as backup) are still working after a >> software update. > > Noted. Since Debian is the Universal Operating System, it seems like we > would have to continue to do this in order to accommodate users who use > the new fifth option (at #1121514). That said, following NEWS is too > hard for the users I support, and I don't believe that it's necessary to > gatekeep functioning backups to users who are capable of navigating > breaking changes when there is upstream support for migrating a > deprecated or obsolete (and broken) configuration to a working one. The > worst case scenario here is > > 1. User dist-upgrades oldstable to stable, doesn't understand NEWS. > 2. Does a bunch of important irreplaceable work. > 3. Catastrophic hardware failure occurs. > 4. Backups are out-of-date. > > I believe we can do better. No objections to this but it just makes me wonder if a config-driven command line backup tool is the best option for non-technical users when more user-friendly alternatives possibly exist. (e.g. vorta is in Debian.) Either way, carry on. I appreciate your maintaining borgmatic. I was getting tired of packaging new versions for myself. :) > > Regards, > Nicholas Regards, Simon
