Thanks for the convivial reply, it's a nice change of pace, so much
BTS stuff is strictly business.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:39:13 +0000
"Thaddeus H. Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Precisely. Well, regrettably I have never learned classical Latin,
> nor read Cicero, Vergil, etc., which is a real lack in my education;
> so I appreciate the correction...
Those classics I can read are all translated, so I'd be a lame
excuse for a classics scholar -- maybe someday -- any rudiments of
etymology shown result from a modest collection of dictionaries.
> ...For better or for worse, I think that we are stuck with the
> honorable package name "debram" now. Can we work within this
> constraint, in your view?
Sure, but (not to pass the buck) naming the baby, that ought to be up
to you. I know such decisions can be difficult:
http://mulinux.dotsrc.org/archive/4530.html
> The word "neologism" came new to me in your e-mail, incidentally. I
> have just looked it up. It is ironic that it is a Greek word,
> because I had wanted Latin not Greek for Debram's purpose.
> Nonetheless, it was never my intent to neologize needlessly. The
> very large number of French-, Italian-, Spanish- and
> Portuguese-speaking Debian users recommended a Latin root if
> practicable.
>
> Is there not a Latin verb "ramere," meaning "to branch?" For some
> reason I had thought that there were such a verb. I had admittedly
> not even been aware of the noun "ramus;" I had been thinking
> "ramere," for which, I had thought, "subramere" made sense.
While I have no comprehensive Latin dictionary, my old Cassell's hasn't
any 'ramere'. But the entry for 'ramus' is good:
ramus -i, masculine.
I. a bough, branch, twig.
A. literal: in quibus non truncus, non rami, non folia,
- Cicero
B. by metonomy:
a, the fruit growing on a bough;
rami atque venatus alebat,
- Vergil
b, a branch of a stag's antlers, Caesar.
II. Transferred:
1, branch of a mountain range, Pliny.
2, rami, the arms of the Greek letter Y, regarded
by the Pythagoreans as sybolical of the two
paths of life; Samii rami, Personal.
(Cassell abbreviations expanded.)
No 'ram-' verbs, just nouns.
Still, if verbs need findin', I'll crack open H. Burger's "Wordtree", a
singularly unusual dictionary-like book, tirelessly derived from a
theory that verbs are the atom of language and grammar, and most verbs
have just two parents. Page 325 defines 'ramify' as 'divide & extend',
then goes on to define 'ramify & diverge = branch', 'ramify & point =
thorn'; then what appears to be a computer generated comment that
'ramify' can be confused with the "more accurate" verbs 'actbranch' and
'arborize'. Oh ho ho what a book...
> Is the English verb "to ramify" only a back-formation from the English
> noun "ramification?"
The OED's etymologies map it out in this order:
1st) Latin 'ramus'.
2nd) Medieval Latin 'ramificare'.
3rd) French 'ramifier'.
4th) English verb 'ramify' in 1541.
5th) English noun 'ramification' in 1677.
> ...I first got the word from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings,
> incidentally---another irony, since Tolkien usually avoided Latin
> words when he could. Tolkien describes the ancestral "smials" or
> burrows of Brandy Hall as "large and ramifying," which seemed to
> describe the Debram catalog about as well as it did Brandy Hall.
I believe the basis of so many English latinisms was that they were
coined at a time when Latin was a useful way to be hyper-formal about
unspeakable or socially difficult topics; so there's a lot of subtle
humor in these old coinages -- they often weren't meant to be serious
synonyms that denoted new meaning, but rather gentler alternatives
to extant English words which connoted _too_much_ meaning. Latin was
like a time-released candy-coating for bitter pills. Like the
proverb "tell the truth, then run"; tell the truth in an obscure way,
so that slow thinking oppressors will be far away if they ever do
understand, which can be more efficient than running, as they logged
the miles, saving you exercise.
(I notice from watching Bollywood movies that Indians enjoy using
English phrases and expressions in a similar, but less secretive way --
almost like how Americans use French and Pig-Latin.)
> > If it would help, I'd be willing to make a man page patch file
> > with some tentative rewordings.
>
> Please begin, but then check back here. Like any other Debian
> maintainer not yet acquainted with a new contributor, I would ask you
> to begin in moderately small steps. I recommend that you put three
> hours or less toward your proposal before posting back here for
> further discussion. (One tries to avoid artist's pride, but to some
> degree it is unavoidable. Only human, I may need some time to grow
> used to an improved terminology.)
I'll give it a shot... but first a question as to verb subjects and objects:
% man debram | grep -C 1 -n ramifies
14- packages. Sorting them into broad classes then dividing and
redividing
15: them into finer, more specific branches, this command ramifies
Debian's
16: packages in much the same manner as a university library ramifies
its
17- books. If you know what you want your computer to do but do not
yet
...particularly "this command ramifies...", and "a ... library
ramifies...".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 'debram' command lists selections from
files such as "/usr/share/debram-data/debram.txt.gz", and it's those
data files that comprise a classification system, (or tree, or
ramification), and that system was made by you, not the 'debram'
command. The command displays but does not create data.
On "university library" -- the adjective "university" isn't precise,
because public libraries have catalogs too, and libraries do not ramify
or classify, librarians do. Obviously it's a figure of speech to refer
to an institution for an individual, (Greek rhetoric must have word for
it), but that instance of the figure seems odd somehow -- a librarian
would never say that, it would deprive their undervalued profession of
what little respect it receives. They say things like "the library
will close in 15 minutes", or "the library needs more funds", but not
"the library has chosen to put 'Peanuts' in the 741s".
Furthermore most academic and many city libraries use the LOC catalog,
(Library Of Congress), which as I understand it, allows no leeway -- in
Public Libraries a Dewey Decimal librarian might file a nonfiction book
under any subject they prefer, and even decide whether a book is put in
nonfiction, ('Peanuts' could go either way), but the LOC is
inflexible. A typical Univ. Lib. or librarian does not actually
ramify, they acquire, record, and shelve, excepting perhaps they're
currently the officially appointed guardian of some LOC
subclassification.
Anyway, what seems most important is this: the 'debram' command is
just a kind of list/search program, the meat of the package is the
debram catalog, database, or whatever we call it. I'm not sure it's
that convenient to label the catalog, (which is the greater part), with
the same name as a particular program that lists it. Just as with the
client-server model, there might be one standard server daemon, but a
variety of client programs.
Summing up: as far as history and etymology goes, these 'rami-' words
are novelties. Many latinisms were coined tongue in cheek. The debram
database should be considered indispensable, but the 'debram' program
or "client" may not always be and the difference between the two could
be more clearly distinguished.
Thanks again the the package & reply, & moderate patches pending...
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