Similarly, tools such as ECO or bold is the same kind of plaster over a
language. Using them does not guarantee good design.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Vowles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: [DUG] Scripting languages
That argument is fallacious, with enormous effort you can use almost any
language to design good software - it is simply a question of effort.
But when (a) the language/environment promotes bad design and (b) almost
all examples, and certainly all public examples that people learn from
are hideous beyond imagining then it is most definitely the fault of the
language.
I know this is going to sound bad, I am guilty of it as well, but it
only strengthens my argument. 95% of Delphi apps out there are a mess
because that is what the language and framework and examples promoted.
It was the way it was done. PHP suffers the same way - mess = way it is
done and nothing out there promotes a better way. The fact that most
professional users of the product make great efforts to not use it in
the "out of the box" fashion is neither here nor there. Doing that
defeats much of the "benefits" of the language/environment. Why I like
ECO (and Bold before it) is because it brings the much needed structure
of good software design and yet retains the benefits of Delphi
development. Some people in the Delphi development community have done
this kind of thing already, and on the win32 platform - what percentage
I don't know, but simply spitting out your HTML via XSL-T IMHO is just a
plaster IMHO.
Going back to Java - because I can, the current arguments in Java are
pretty much over the presentation layer mechanism, business logic, OO,
separation of concerns, security - all that stuff is generally done,
dusted and accepted - and it is done well and cleanly. From what I have
seen, PHP does not have that stuff sorted. PHP5 could be different, it
could be clean, but I don't know. But I doub't it.
To carry on this discussion I would have to have a much greater
knowledge of PHP than I do, so perhaps it is all ignorance. But given
the PHP apps I have seen in the community (oscommerce, sugarcrm, various
others), PHP = struggle against the self inflicted chaos.
---
Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +64-9-9184573
cell: +64-21-467747
other: MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED], skype: rvowles
blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Dennis Chuah
Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 12:59 p.m.
To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
Just because software is poorly designed, doesn't mean to say the
language is crap. I've seen plenty of poorly written Delphi code, parts
of the VCL included, and we all know Delphi is far from crap.
osCommerce IS the abomination, not PHP.
Just like in ASP / JSP, embedding HTML is only an option. You don't
have to use it. Personally, I generate all my HTML through XSLT. All
my code needs to do is create the right XML data structure and the
presentation is all in XSLT.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neven MacEwan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:43 PM
Yes it is off topic but you started it!
PHP5's OO is a lot better and you could build a good framework in it
(it is probably your framework which is good not the language)
Some things in PHP5 are great Autoload for class refs etc, I'd not
dismiss PHP.
As you know its not the language which it at fault with HTML dev, its
generally HTML itself but every time I see another golden bullet dev
platform (Ruby on rails for example) I have a sly chuckle
The best bit is that you can make PHP 5 look a lot like Delphi
Neven
Richard Vowles wrote:
Once I got to the retarded method they use for objects I just gave
up.
But this is off-topic.
Ever tried to understand what is going on in oscommerce? PHP begs
spaghetti coding - and I can't stand that method of building web
pages.
I have my own framework I have worked on for years, it is
mega-productive, extremely clean and very extensible. It is also in
Java
which is both good and bad. My role in DevCo will require me to use
and
promote both technologies, but I'd like to be able to use it in .NET
as
well.
Richard
---
Richard Vowles, Solutions Architect, Borland New Zealand
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +64-9-9184573
cell: +64-21-467747
other: MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED], skype: rvowles
blog: http://www.usergroup.org.nz/blogs/selectBlog.html?id=39769
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Alister Christie
Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 11:54 a.m.
To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List
Subject: Re: [DUG] Scripting languages
Having done very little PHP I can't comment too much, however the bit
of
cut and paste I have done I found fairly easy to understand and
improve
upon.
Do you consider it an abomination because of it's syntax (like say,
they
way VB is an abomination)?
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--
Neven MacEwan (B.E. E&E)
Ph. 09 620 1356 Mob. 027 4749 062
New Address Details
===================
MWK Computer Systems
1 Taumata Rd
Sandringham
Auckland
Ph 620 1356
Fx 620 1336
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