Craig McClanahan wrote: >On 6/24/05, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>----- Original Message ----- >>Wrom: SZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMN >>To: "MyFaces Development" <[email protected]> >>Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 10:08 PM >>Subject: Re: Proposal: Elimiante jar files from SVN >> >> >> >> >>>James Mitchell wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Unless I missed it somewhere, no one has mentioned the extra bloat in >>>>your source distributions (if you include the binary dependencies). >>>> >>>> >>>James, >>> >>>you need the binary dependencies anyway to build the project, so what is >>>your point? You download the source distribution with libs included or >>>you download the source distribution without libs and ant does the lib >>>download afterwards. The sum of required network traffic is the same. >>> >>> >>> >>That's true for the developer. But I was also considering ASF hardware and >>bandwidth. Again, that's a drop in the bucket if only MyFaces were doing >>it. But you are not. I have had this same conversation (beating the same >>dead horse) with developers on other projects, both here, sf.net, and many, >>MANY closed source projects. >> >> > >To reinforce this point, even though *you* (someone downloading the >CVS or SVN sources of a project) does not pay for the network >bandwidth, the ASF *does* pay for it. I'd rather see that money >supporting more users, rather than downloading zillions of copies of >the same JAR files. > > Craig,
just for the record: my ISP does not give me internet access for free so of course I'm paying for the network bandwidth, too. But that's not the main topic. What's the topic is that I can't see the difference between - check out the required libraries together with the project sources from SVN and - check out the project sources without required libraries from SVN and afterwards call an ant target to download the required libs from some apache jar repository. If you ask me the difference in network traffic between the two scnearios is close to zero as the required jars have to be transfered to my local hard disk anyway, so what's your point? And if I'm informed correctly in case a new version of a required lib is needed SVN is even more efficent than the solution you propose: SVN will just transfer the diffs between the two binaries like rsync does, but with your solution ant has to download the complete jar. By the way, discussing ASF's infrastructure costs will lead to nothing, don't you think? Of course ASF provides the infrastructure and - thanks to financial donations - pays for it. I'm thankful for that as I'm thankful to VA Software and OSTG for providing the services of sourceforge.net and as I'm thankful to anyone else providing similar services to the open souce community. But from my POV that's the reason d'etre of ASF: to provide infrastructure for open-source projects. To quote from http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html: "The Apache Software Foundation is committed to providing free access to all interested participants. All of our code is distributed under the Apache Software License <http://www.apache.org/LICENSE.txt>, an OSI-approved license <http://www.opensource.org/licenses/>. The project mailing lists are all open to the public and contributors are usually welcomed with open arms. So, there is no cost required to contribute code to the projects. However, there is usually a substantial time committment that is required in order to contribute to a project. For some, time is cheaper than money. For others, money is cheaper than time (lucky you). We realize that, and want to promote contributions from everyone - no matter the form." My point is: we, the developers, contribute our time and ASF provides the infrastructure by collecting donations in whatever form. It's giving and taking. If you like I pay for the infrastructure by contributing development time. So, please, don't argue I have to take care for network costs by "optimizing" the build process and SVN usage in the way you propose. What's funny is that besides infrastructure costs obvioiusly nobody can show me the problem in the MyFaces build that will be solved by downloading the libs from some external source. This should be the core of the discussion and from my POV your proposal just introduces potential new problems which are not there at the moment and therefore I'm absolutely against this. Oliver >For the record, I am absolutely and totally -1 on including JAR files >in the source code repository of any Apache project that I work on. >Including them in a binary distribution, of course, is a totally >different animal. > >Craig > > -- Oliver Rossmueller Software Engineer and IT-Consultant Hamburg, Germany http://www.rossmueller.com
