Hi, TL;DR I've the impression there is kind of a feeling "FirefoxOS devices are not sold because carriers and OEMs are not doing their job properly". That is imho a simplistic and unfair view. I was very doubtful about sending this reply, finally, I've decided to do so with the hope this is received as constructive feedback, as we shouldn't be focusing in what could others do to help FirefoxOS to succeed but in what we could do to make it happen.
Detailed comments inline and sorry for the long e-mail. Thanks! El sábado, 24 de enero de 2015, 18:55:43 (UTC+1), Andre Garzia escribió: > Let me just add some extra context about this issues. I am Brazilian and > heavily involved with the Firefox OS launch in here. Both LG and Vivo (TEF) > don't have the best interest of the user at hand regarding Firefox OS. DC: This is simply a wrong statement, I cannot talk on behalf of LG, but I can talk about Telefónica, which by the way has been (and still is) the main carrier supporting FirefoxOS. Telefónica tried to do everything we could do to convince LG to upgrade devices. The no updates problem is occurring only with 1 OEM in TEF footprint and based on that experience we took measures to avoid that from happening again. I can't disclose publicly those measures as they are part of the contractual relationships between Telefónica and the OEMs. However, I can let you know that we are offering free data traffic for updates in nearly all the countries and that we have upgraded Fire E devices to 2.0 in less than 3 months since the QC CS was available to the OEM. > At the launch, devices were subsidized were selling really well. After the > initial impact people started complaining about the lack of major apps and > the lack of upgrades. In our training materials and pitch we defended the > notion that the phones would be upgraded at least twice a year, that never > happened. > > People started returning the phones or selling them on auction sites because > without WhatsApp support the phone was not seen as an alternative to cheap > Androids. After that Vivo cut the subsidies and now phones retail for more > than a more powerful Android device. A LG Fireweb phone will cost ~R$400 > where an Android phone can be purchased by ~R$300. > DC: Telefonica is investing a lot of money trying to do whatever it takes to launch FirefoxOS devices, part of that work (e.g. subsidies) can only be afforded for some units/time, as the budget required is huge, and the expectation was that after a ramp up period, fewer subsidies were going to be required because of economy of scales: more devices, more attractive, with more content and more brand awareness... Unfortunately, this has not happened and I think it would be wrong to blame carriers or OEMs for this. What you can't ask VIVO is to continue subsidising devices endlessly, if you believe subsidising devices is the way to go, why is not Mozilla simply subsdising the devices? > After both these disappointments there is the issue of upgrades. We've been > told in many occasions that our hardware partners were required to unlock the > devices. I was present when Andreas Gal spoke about that in an event. I've > been told in many occasions that if a partner was unwilling to update the > phone that they would be forced to unlock it. All that was false. > > Even without whatsapp, even with more expensive devices, we still have loyal > users. We have people here using devices that are a couple generations behind > the current Firefox OS version. Mozilla staff and volunteers are mostly on > the bleeding edge with Flames and Firefox OS 2.x but the common user on the > street is running Firefox OS 1.1 without any expectation of upgrade. Heck, > we've even upgraded the Firefox Browser with WebIDE and other tools that are > not compatible with Firefox OS 1.1 with the consequence of alienating our > local third party developers. Small shops and independent vendors that were > using local devices to develop our so prized local content and that all of a > sudden could not longer use the Simulators or attach their device to the > browser. > > The Alcatel OT Fire is hackable, there are recipes and ROMs floating around > the internet. The LG Fireweb is a nightmare. It can't be rooted. LG refuses > even to acknowledge our calls and for a long while they wouldn't even list > the phone in their website. LG personally told me that there was not going to > be an upgrade because the phone could not handle it which is of course > bullshit because we know pretty well that it can go up to 1.3 at least. > > Every week users and developers come to me asking for the upgrades. If we > could at least install community built versions then we could solve this > problem but we can't and there is nothing we can do. Until someone can > persuade LG to start acting like a partner and unlock the device or some > genius find a way to unlock it by force, we'll not solve this issue. > > We sold well and we had a lot of goodwill towards our cause and mission. We > blew it by relying on partners shipping locked devices. > This is a very simplistic conclusion: devices are sold because of the great Mozilla values and the only problem is the partners. In the beginning you said devices were initially sold because of subsidies (which came from Vivo), and now you say "We sold well"? I would not say something sells well if for doing so it requires subsidies as that is not sustainable. Furthermore, who is "we"? mozilla, the carrier, the OEM? I am really confused. "We blew it by relying on partners shipping locked devices". Ok, if this is the problem, I'd suggest you look for more carriers and OEMs. Why are not all the carriers in Brazil selling FirefoxOS devices? Why are not all the OEMs in the world manufacturing them? Why are not all the people buying them? If FirefoxOS is such a great solution that sells that well, finding those partners should be an easy task. Telefónica would welcome such an scenario, as it would be the best way to reach the economy of scales I mentioned above. I am pretty sure that what carriers and OEMs do could be largely improved, but I think we should focus on what is in our hands: With respect to updates, some ideas: 1/ Ensure new releases are predictable about when are delivered and what they contain. For partners is really difficult to have an update policy if the cadence of the releases changes from 6 to 3 months and vice versa, releases are canceled or the content of a release changes... This is even more complicated if these decisions are unilateral, poorly communicated and not enough time in advance. 2/ Provide a better update system: currently the updates are all or nothing, meaning that for updating a single app, the system update process must be used. This is clearly not how the Web works and how a Web device should be updated. 3/ Test exhaustively updates: Every time Telefónica we have tested an update scenario with an OEM, we ended up discovering pretty bad bugs (e.g. data loss, mis-functioning functionality... ). We have lost a lot of time detecting and fixing these bugs, which are sometimes really hard to solve as they are usually discovered at a very late stage of the branching process... There is one thing worse than no updating the devices: updating and breaking them. With respect to content and ecosystem: 1/ Try to look for alternatives to the key missing content (e.g. WhatsApp - which, for instance, is available in Tizen devices) 2/ Try to ensure any Web content runs properly in FirefoxOS (there is already an e-mail thread discussing that). I am pretty sure there are many other things that we could do, and I really expect some of them become a reality in FxOS 3.0. When we started FirefoxOS we knew succeeding was not going to be easy and that few helping hands were going to be out there. It's not time to look for excuses, we don't have time for that, we need to keep pushing, even stronger now, to create a device that leverages all the power of Web. > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Emueval Randomised <[email protected]> wrote: > I strongly believe that all FirefoxOS devices should be either pre-rooted or > otherwise easily rooted. Yes, I understand the security risks posed by > someone gaining physical access to the phone but IMHO at this point there is > one even more important point: > > > > Early adopters/first-time users tend to be "powerusers" who like to tinker > with things. Now, this is a VERY important group, it is those users who will > influence others to adopt FirefoxOS by word of mouth. It is the skilled among > these users who will first develop apps for FirefoxOS. It is those users who > will actively participate in the community, file bugs, try nightly builds and > provide feedback. > > > > Giving those users a locked and impossible to upgrade device just pisses them > off and drives them away from FirefoxOS especially in these earlier stages > that features are being added very rapidly and being stuck with an old > version means no access to new OS features. Would you expect someone to buy a > new device every few months or so just to be able to contribute to the > community? Hell no, most would just leave. > > > > And when they leave FirefoxOS gets discredited, the vital first-time-user > base shrinks and would-be potential contributors are driven away. I know if I > bought a phone that was limited in that way I'd probably never again invest > in a FirefoxOS device. > > > > A platform in it's infancy NEEDS powerusers desperately. Their numbers, > contributions and evangelism are what will make FirefoxOS a mainstream OS and > get it into the hands of the average Joe. Powerusers need to be able to > tinker with things and that requires rooted and easily upgradable devices. > > > > Sorry for the long post but these things needed to be said and I hope this > will bloom into a fruitful discussion. > > > > > > On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:59:44 PM UTC+2, Ralph Daub wrote: > > > Hi PR and B2G teams, > > > > > > > > > I'm Ralph Daub, and I work with the User Success team, focusing on Firefox > > OS support. > > > > > > > > > > > > A user in the SUMO forums has made very specific questions about why the > > commercial device that he purchased does not come rooted, and I'm hoping to > > get some assistance on how to approach answering it: > > > > > > > > > https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1042307 > > > > > > > > > In the past, I was able to deflect many of these types of questions. > > However, this user is asking specific questions to which I do not have an > > answer to: > > > Why "non-developer" devices come crippled (not-rooted), non-developers > > don't have > > > rights for manipulating with own device? > > > Why Mozilla participating on > > > delivery crippled (not-rooted) device? Or why Mozilla recommended crippled > > devices on > > > their websites?I have stored lot of sms/mms in my Firefox OS > > > > > "non-devel" phone, how can backup it? (to SD card, to Computer ...) I > > > read some how-tos but all failed because they need root access. > > > > > > This has been an ongoing issue that I've brought up in the past, and I > > consider it a sensitive topic. I believe that non-rooted devices go against > > Mozilla's manifesto Principle #4: > > > > > > > > > "Individuals' security and privacy on the Internet are fundamental and must > > not be treated as optional." > > > > > > Using the LG Fireweb device as an example: > > > > > > > > > The device does not come rooted and LG will not be releasing an update. > > Users were effectively stuck on version 1.1 from the moment they purchased > > the device. No updates means that the users will not be receiving any > > security fixes available in future versions of the OS. > > > > > > Additionally, there is no way for users to manually root the device - a > > workaround that would allow them to manually install new versions of the OS. > > > > > > > > > This is not the first time that Firefox OS users and contributors have > > asked this question and it won't be the last - so I'm hoping to get > > direction on how to approach these questions, from a PR-perspective, from a > > product perspective, from a legal perspective. > > > > > > I am open to listening to any insights that we might have on this. > > > > > > Please feel free to reply-all, or reach out to me directly via email, IRC, > > or vidyo. > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > - Ralph > > _______________________________________________ > > dev-b2g mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g > > > > > -- > > http://www.andregarzia.com -- All We Do Is Code. > http://fon.nu -- minimalist url shortening service. _______________________________________________ dev-b2g mailing list [email protected] https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
