Hi,
Martina (laramarco), a tried and tested Oxid user with apparently a lot of
e-business experience behind her, has asked me to translate some
considerations from her POV:
Deleting user data has significant drawbacks for any shop owner:
- multiple costs for credit assessment are caused,
- affiliate bonuses cannot be calculated correctly,
- newsletter subscriptions are messed up,
- marketing activities are made more difficult (the whole marketing aspect
has to be reconsidered in Oxid),
- user coupons become a problem, assignment to user groups are made
impossible,
- abc-pricing is made impossible,
- buyer fraud becomes easier,
- and more....
I hope I have reported everything correctly! :-) (compare below)
---
BTW:
Ralf or one of the developers:
Could you point out to us which registration and order classes we should
look at in order to prevent user deletion (I find again and again that
doxygen is sometimes secretive and does not respond to just any search
string extracted from a piece of code)?
Cheers,
Achim
----------------
Hallo Achim,
glaub wir kennen uns noch nicht, ich bin die laramarco aus dem alten sowie
neuen Forum und lese auch die Dev Liste. Mein englisch reicht aber nicht
aus, um mit Euch mit zu diskutieren, habe eben aber folgendes Ralf in skype
gestellt, vielleicht kannst Du das noch mit an die Dev Liste geben:
hi ralf, ich nehme jetzt hier das skype weil mein englisch für eure dev
gruppe nix taugt, aus shopbetreibersicht ist das löschen eines accounts
schlicht scheiße - weil - jedes mal neue boniprüfung gezahlt werden muß -
keine module a la umsatzbasierende provisionen funktionieren - weil selbst
bei newsletter an und abmeldungen murks läuft - weil wie andreas schrieb,
die kompletten marketing dinge einfach nicht richtig durchdacht sind - wie
kann ich diesen usern gutscheine ausstellen, welche benutzergruppen kann ich
ein bzw. ausschließen, auch bei den rabatten wirds nicht klappen, oder wer
mit abc preisen arbeitet, wie soll das funzen und und und, da fallen mir
noch zig gründe ein, betrug durch benutzen mehrerer ähnlicher
namen/adressen - wenn der mal gelöscht ist, findet man nix und liefert an
betrüger aus, weil eben der admin keine daten zu dem namen findet - je
länger ich nachdenk, also ich bin definitiv NICHT für löschen
Hoffe Du kannst meine Kurzzeilen verstehen ;)
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Martina Schimbach
----
http://FollowMeButton.com/auth.php?user=laramarco
Martinas Bastel-& Hobbykiste
Geschäftsleitung
Bestellhotline: 0800-9655324
Martinas Bastel-& Hobbykiste
Inh. Martina Schimbach
Zum Grund 9
35796 Blessenbach
Germany
----------------
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]im Auftrag von Reinhard
Schneidewind
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 20:44
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general]Deletingunregistereduser accounts
[T-3CKCXFBU7D-56]
Hi,
to remove the connection from oxorder to oxuser generates a
problem with our export-interface. So I agree to Achim.
As I remember OXID said that they cannot make a
solution for all. But would it not be possible to provide an option
in the shop admin-interface where each shop provider has the
ability to choose if the data should be deleted or new ids should
be created.
Some of you wrote that a customer which uses the option to place
the order without registration do not want his data to be kept in
the shop database. But in my opinion this is part of the privacy
agreement.
Further if I order something and use the option "without registration",
I know that the data will be kept (not only for marketing purposes).
The only reason why I would use this option is that, at the time of
placing the order, I have no plan to place a further order in near
future.
Regards,
Reinhard
On 2010-04-15 18:38, Achim Leinberger wrote:
Hi Andreas, hi Ralf,
the seller is legally bound to keep the records for ten years. Full stop.
This is not up to the customer. All the customer can demand, is that his
records are purged from any marketing database. That's his legal right,
but
has nothing to do with the order database.
So I don't really see why the "vanishing buyer details bug" is not simply
corrected by keeping the frigging customer data in the user table, and
handing a new user id to the next "guest buyer".
I really can't see any wrong with that.
Cheers,
Achim
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]im Auftrag von anzido
GmbH
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 17:51
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general]Deletingunregistereduser accounts
[T-3CKCXFBU7D-56]
Hi Achim,
most shop owners do want to have the user data in their shops to use them
for marketing activities and evaluation. They do want to know if somebody
is
a NEW customer or if he already bought something in the shop etc.
All those activities might not be allowed if somebody buys explicitly
WITHOUT andy registration. The data have to be kept for fulfillment
reasons - but only as long as needed.
So from a customer point of view I would agree that data have to be
deleted
after a certain period of time - which probalby has to be configurable
cause
there might be some different periods of warranty etc. which have effect
on
how long the data have to be kept.
Another question is, if those data have to be kept in the shop database.. I
think there might be customers who are (by pretty good reasons!) afraid
that
their personal data might not be very save on a web server in the
internet.
From a shop owners point of view (and from the experience with our
customers) you probably should keep the data in the shop and make sure
that
they stay connected with orders, newsletter data and so on.
Cheers!
Andreas Ziethen | Geschäftsführung
Hi,
I'd like to know where people see the legal issues with keeping the
fulfillment data in the database, be it under oxuser or oxorder.
IMO this has nothing at all to do with the advertisement "buy without
opening an account". Opening an account is nothing more than being able
to
login later and have all personal data available after logging in. Not
wishing to open this account does not legally bind the seller to not
store
the details, in fact, this being a mailorder business case, data have to
be
stored.
So I think this discussion is beside the point, but please explain
otherwise
if I'm wrong.
Best,
Achim
(oxal)
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]im Auftrag von Ralf
Trapp
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 16:55
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Deletingunregistereduser
accounts[T-3CKCXFBU7D-56]
Ahoi,
I summarize. You basically suggest a procedure like this:
1. During order processing, a temporary account is
Created in a 'good' place (what exactly 'good'
means is still to be defined).
2. All necessary information for fulfilling the order
collected and stored somewhere in a 'good' place
(what exactly 'good' means is still to be defined).
3. Previously created temporary account is deleted,
order information is kept.
I'm not yet talking about database and issues, just want to agree about
basic procedure and later on about how to realize it.
Regards,
Ralf
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von
[email protected]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. April 2010 12:40
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Deleting unregistereduser
accounts[T-3CKCXFBU7D-56]
I think there is(!) a legal problem..
When the order process starts, the "guest" account is advertised like
"buy
without a customer account in our shop".
But matter-of-factly, the shop is allocating a customer account, and it
is
keeping it forever...
So you are basically cheating your customers...
Imo xtCommerce handles this situation correctly:
During order processing, a temporary account is created, which is deleted
after successful order processing.
All necessary information for fulfilling the order is kept in the order
record(s) in the DB, and this particular order is never changed by the
shop
any more, if not the shop-owner changes it on purpose (address-info,
articles aso.).
If the same client should order again later on, new order record(s) will
be
created.
Doing it that way, you both adhere to your promise (no customer account
in
the shop), and you can fulfill the order.
Dipl.-Ing.(TH) Winfried Kaiser (aka Avenger)
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von Ralf
Trapp
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. April 2010 12:21
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Deleting unregistered user
accounts[T-3CKCXFBU7D-56]
Hi all,
from legal point of view there's no prob at all as of course shop owners
need this data to fulfill the order.
As changes here affect many (esp. external) connections to and with OXID
eShop, I'd like to trigger a discussion about possible _solutions_ which
can
and should be implemented.
Any ideas?
Regards,
Ralf
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von anzido
GmbH
Gesendet: Freitag, 13. November 2009 09:13
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Deleting unregistered user
accounts[T-3CKCXFBU7D-56]
Hi Marco,
notes. Hope you recognized the wind of change of the past
months/weeks. :-)
I did ... - and hope it'll keep blowing! ;-)
From a legal point of view - and this should be the only and lonely
criterion - I would propose ...
From a legal point of view there cannot be any "proposal". This has to
be
properly investigated and at the end of the day there has to be a
reliable
statemet of how things have to be done.
- oxremarks would appear in oxorder as well
I don't think that the order remarks have been meant here ... - but I
might
be wrong.
- as there would not be any oxuser entry, the unregistered user cannot
have a history or related stuff
For several purposes many shop owners do want to have such history of
unregistered users. But as I said above: Make sure that we soon get a
reliable legal statement for that.
In my opinion, this is not just a dirty workaround but a legal
requirement. If we consequently implemented it like proposed, of course,
a couple of problems would come up, especially for existing interfaces
that used oxuser instead of oxorder for gathering data before.
Exactly. And another thing is that customers get a new customer number
each
time they order (if not registered). Actually I doubt that this is an
oblogatory legal request.
As I said: first pleyse check out the definite legal conditions. And then
let's see what's up for the code.
Regards
Andreas
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