So in summary: the allegations are true, and there's a direct business 
model created to allow this to exist alongside the traditional certificates 
system?

Are any other CAs going to be forthcoming on a similar approach, as what is 
being described is renting certificate lifespan, with hidden cancellation 
fees. I don't see how this is compatible with the baseline requirements, 
and seems to reflect a CA further inserting themselves into the chain to 
confuse subscribers on what precisely they are purchasing with a 
certificate. A flexible-volume license approach is different than what has 
been described, to be clear.

It is disconcerting that this is phrased as standard operating procedure, 
and nothing to worry about.

- Wayne 

On Friday, August 2, 2024 at 1:33:10 PM UTC+1 Bruce Morton wrote:

> Hi Nick,
>
> Thanks for passing on the customer email, we’re following up directly 
> there, and as always, we’d recommend that customers directly reach out to 
> their account team to discuss their specific needs.
>
> That said, we think it would be helpful to share the different certificate 
> licensing models we offer and the details of each. Entrust broadly offers 
> two models for certificate purchase. The handling of active certificates, 
> including revocation, differs based on the model chosen by the customer.
>
> The first model is what we call “unit based” and is what most would 
> consider the historically traditional approach for certificate offers, 
> where a customer purchases a certificate for a specific term, that 
> certificate is paid for up front, and their license is valid through the 
> expiration date of the certificate. After initial issuance only limited 
> changes are permitted to the details of the certificate.
>
> The second model is what we call “subscription” or “pooling”, and this 
> approach allows a customer to have up to a pre-defined number of 
> certificates issued and active at any given time during the period of the 
> subscription. This approach allows customers the flexibility to issue and 
> change certificates as often as necessary as their needs change, including, 
> for example, revoking a no-longer needed certificate and issuing a new one 
> with new organization information or domains, with no additional charges. 
> At the time of renewal, customers can increase or decrease the number of 
> certificates that are available under their subscription. If at any time a 
> customer chooses to fully stop their subscription, then the license period 
> ends, and under the terms of the agreement we reserve the right to revoke 
> any unexpired certificates.
>
> So, depending on the model selected by the customer up front, the approach 
> differs on how unexpired certificates are handled upon termination, and 
> both are addressed in our Certificate and Signing Services Terms of Use. In 
> addition, it is common that terms may be custom negotiated, so the best 
> course of action, for any individual customer with questions, is to contact 
> their account representatives directly to discuss.
>
> We hope this provides some more context to the question here on what our 
> standard options and practices are. And we have an extensive customer 
> communications and outreach program underway to ensure that customers 
> understand their options and to provide uninterrupted support for their 
> publicly trusted TLS certificates.
>
> On Thursday, August 1, 2024 at 2:04:05 PM UTC-4 Nick France wrote:
>
>> Last time this happened (see the thread Jonathan Doe linked to), we did 
>> see this with customers looking to move to Sectigo - but it was quickly 
>> remedied with Jeremy and Tim H's help. We haven't seen a problem with 
>> DigiCert again since.
>>
>> I will say that we are now seeing the same with Entrust customers who are 
>> being told that active certificates will be revoked if contracts are not 
>> renewed, in clear language.
>>
>> I have privately sent the details of at least one customer to Bruce, and 
>> hopefully he can confirm this was an error on the part of the Entrust 
>> employee, or that it is indeed Entrust's policy.
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> On Thursday, August 1, 2024 at 1:21:58 AM UTC+1 Mike Shaver wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 8:19 PM Matt Palmer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 04:02:50PM -0700, 'Bruce Morton' via 
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> > Without more details about your specific situation, it’s difficult to
>>>> > address your concern effectively. Please reach out to me personally, 
>>>> and I
>>>> > will do my best to assist you.
>>>>
>>>> Given Entrust's perceived past (lack of) transparency in communications,
>>>> it might be better if as much of this issue could be resolved in public.
>>>>
>>>> Can you provide any insight into why any Entrust subscriber may have
>>>> gained the impression that "if we did not renew the contract, all active
>>>> certificates would be revoked"?  Even if that is not Entrust's
>>>> intention, the fact that a subscriber may have gotten that impression
>>>> from, say, an over-zealous salesperson or poorly-worded email is very
>>>> troubling.
>>>
>>>
>>> Have to disagree here, Matt. I don’t think it will be as effective for 
>>> this discussion to be redacted as it would need to be in order to be 
>>> public, and still protect J Doe, and I think that we can take Bruce’s offer 
>>> to investigate in good faith.
>>>
>>> If it becomes a pattern that’s reported more widely—and I think it would 
>>> spread quickly, given the visibility of Entrust’s difficulties of late—then 
>>> we might get to the point of “very troubling”. Let’s not use up all our 
>>> strong language on the earliest wisps of concern. :)
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>

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