Berin Loritsch wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Berin Loritsch wrote:
As this affects the whole of Avalon, I would like to know your thoughts,
comments, concerns on this subject. If we would like to adopt it as our future
direction, let's do it. If there are any concerns, let's lay them on the table.
We have a charter that states what Avalon is about - "service and component management".
Within that scope there an infinite number of possibilities. However, when we consider community dynamics, the interests of different users, and personal objectives, we see a tendency of people to move towards concepts that interest them. And from time-to-time we move from one center-of-gravity to another. In effect, this represent the migration of interests drawn by the emergence of new ideas, solutions or opportunities.
Here are my thoughts about the big picture from this perspective:
Stop the process of *forced* convergence. -----------------------------------------
* Nobody here wants to be forced to do anything. * Its driving people away. * Its not focussing on needs.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the RRT was forcing convergence. Just
trying to generate healthy conversation.
Included in your RRT was the subject of a "Community Agreement Process". In that description you suggested that Jakarta rules are insufficient (a point I would contest). Within those guideline you proposed something that in my view attempts to engineer the direction of the community.
Berin Loritsch wrote (original post):
* Once all _questions_ have been answered about the differing proposals, and
the proposals are finished with any modifications due to the questions,
we place it up for vote. The proposal that wins, wins. No exceptions.
This set up rules - it changes the scope of what people here can do. I states that the community must follow without exception. That is a equivalent to modification of the charter. What happens if someone does something inside the scope of existing Avalon charter but outside the scope of the "plan". Are they expelled from Avalon? Are they coerced into doing things they don't want to do? Or will they simply be pushed out by a select few. These are fundamental issues that impact the community and our freedom to work within the charter that has been established by the Apache Board.
The alternative is to respect the community as a process from which things emerge - promote and support the best of those and learn from the rest.
Instead - let thing evolve because this community wants them to evolve. As you know, I'm quite keen on seeing the development here in Avalon of a common containment API but I'm also opposed to the notion of one container. In fact the vision I like is the ability to pull in a container matching your own needs - dynamically. Its a vision with lots of commonality with your own thoughts. But if we put down a rule that said there must one and only one container - we would immediately in conflict. The problem here is that rules force us into directions which we may not want to go. Underlying this is the problem that rules can used to coerce members of the community in unforeseen ways.
Any issues with the vision in general other than the one container issue?
* I'm not interested in a start from scratch scenario * Instead build on what we have based on shared objectives * Opposed to the Community Agreement Process in general
There may be other issues - but these these leap out at me!
Another approach is to encourage and foster the contributions of developers here at Avalon based on shared objectives - and through this, facilitate the evolution of best-of-breed solutions. To enable adventure, good times, and great results.
There are some things we can do to facilitate this:
* get rid of the notion of managing the community (less stress) * introduce a vibrant release process (frequent releases) * encourage experiments (more surprises) * capture and promote the best of breed (recognition)
I could have swarn that I had 3 out of 4 of those nailed. As to
managing the community, I believe this is largely a misconception.
If you want to propose a project for sandbox - then cool - from there you can work towards what you have in mind. It does not really fit within my own view of where we are heading so I guess I want be an interested observer. But if you introduce the notion of rules - your kind of twisting my arm to work within the context of something I haven’t bought into. Remember - you said - "No Exception". That's attempting to engineer community direction and that's simply not what we should be attempting to doing.
Instead – think about shared objectives.
I want to focus on something here. I want to move toward something
good. I have a ton of ideas, but if I am the only one with them then
what's the use?
Not a lot.
Why not try working with some of the other actives going on and see what you could contribute?
Also, it is clear that status quo of little islands operating to themselves
is not working. That requires some management. I am looking for a way that
lets us to kick-A stuff with the minimal amount of friction/management
necessary. It is important to realize that you as a PMC member are equally
charged with managing this community as I am.
Yep - and in my capacity as PMC member I have already put forward some recommendations. Notable amongst those recommendations was the issue of community engineering and the negative impact this has on members of the community. I also addressed priorities facilitating community growth and development. Underscoring that proposal is my firm belief that this community does not need the type of management your describing.
As to the community guidelines I put forth in the RRT, I thought that they
encouraged best of breed recognition. The idea for the container outline
encouraged experiments--some of them could be quite wild. And all of this
would require a vibrant release process.
So in effect what exists here in Avalon today is what you are aiming for. We have experiments - some of which are wilder than others. But I must confess - our release process is rather stale. But I'll be getting on to that ASAP.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.osm.net
Sent via James running under Merlin as an NT service. http://avalon.apache.org/sandbox/merlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
