Dear Calciters, it is indeed a hard conversation to reply to, but I really like this community, and I feel that the largest possible participation to this discussion is needed, I strongly encourage others to chime in as well, even if they are mostly readers of the ML.
I think that Jacques summarised pretty well the issues and the possible solutions, I won't reiterate on that but try to add what I think could be missing. IMO most of the issues come from a constant tension between people which are more prone to changes, and others that are more risk averse (force of habit, personal attitude, day job-related responsibilities, etc.). Orthogonal to that, there are objective benefits/risks and totally subjective ones. We are all biassed in one way or another, but we should always try to distinguish between the two, and try to be honest with ourselves in the first place. Compromise is key to any successful relationship and community, we should never forget that. Decisions are not set in stone either, in some moments we might try a way and go back to where we were, or maybe we turn a proposal down now, and we reconsider it later on (sometimes people just need to digest things). I know it's easy to identify oneself fully into a single persona from a post like that, but reality is never black or white, the truth is we are more often than not on one of the two sides depending on the situation, we all make mistakes, we all have our limits. Last but not least, the aforementioned problems have been there already for quite some time, but I think we are also living in highly stressful times due to the pandemics, which is affecting us in so many ways, directly or indirectly. Now more than ever we should be really careful with the way we convey our messages, and we should strive to be even more emphatic than ever. There are a lot of people in real pain out there, and forcibly we must have our share of them as well in our community here. Just a last word to Julian and Vladimir: you are both very much appreciated and respected in this community, your work too, your commitment and dedication are a source of inspiration for many of us, I have personally learned a lot by reading your comments and from our interactions, I will always be grateful to you for that. It would be really sad to see any of you go, from both a professional but also a personal standpoint, but I value mental health very much and I would understand if you decide otherwise and wish you all the best. Best regards, Alessandro On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 at 03:21, Albert <[email protected]> wrote: > I echo Jacques’ nice and decent comments on this. > > *"""* > > > > > > > > > > > > *- I think Julian and Vladimir are far and above the most > prolificcontributors on the project (by any measure I can use: code, > commits, emailresponses, longevity, consistency, releases, etc). [3]- I > think Julian and Vladimir typically have the strongest opinions. (Thisis > pretty standard, the most prolific contributors typically have thestrongest > opinions.)- I think we have a general challenge around power asymmetry > (people withpower aren't always aware of how this power influences > others).- I think Julian and Vladimir are the two project titans. People > frequentlydefer to them. When they go "mano a mano", it is challenging as > there isless deference and more conflict. It also can devolve.* > *"""* > > I was scared that either Vladimir or Julian quit. Both gave a lot of help > to me when I contributed. > > To be honest I wasn't expecting > Julian's hard time on the friction with Vladimir, I always treated it as an > example of different opinions > co-exist within a community, and sometimes I even talk about it as > illustrations. > Obviously I didn't grasp the sentiments underneath. > > But, there should be nothing personal after all. let's not forget the goal > first "community over code" > > it's probably worth going through the friction items since Vladimir feels > *"Apparently, the community does not want me or my ideas."* > > - maven to gradle > +1, I'm not familiar with kotlin or gradle, it works and things seem > organized better than before > - fuzzing tests > +1, I mean I probably have problems maintaining them, but I feel this is > the correct thing to do. > - checker framework > +1, also new stuff for me, but I hate nulls > - migrating off jira > +0, I kind of understand the eagerness of vladimir trying to improve > something, but I also feel JIRA works fine. > - auto update release notes > +1, no reason to object to automating routines for everyone because of > human mistakes. > With that said we don't have one at hand, so following the procedure for > this time is a workaround. > > Thoughts from different perspectives are good, yet they are challenging to > accept. > we should have focused more on the facts of the issues but usually we melt > into the sentiments underneath the wordings. > > All in all, the community can't afford to lose any of you two Julian and > Vladimir. > Have great holidays. > > > > On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 4:29 AM Jacques Nadeau <[email protected]> wrote: > > > This is a hard message to respond to. Hopefully my comments will reduce > the > > friction for others to share their own observations. Something that I > will > > reiterate here is that Julian posted this on a public forum which is a > > request to not only get feedback from committers and PMC members but the > > community at large. To help facilitate this, I would suggest that more > > active project members only make a single response to this to allow > "space" > > for others to provide their feedback. > > > > Firstly, at least for me, it is a hard time of year to have this kind of > > nuanced & sensitive conversation since I'm doing a lot of holiday family > > stuff in the coming weeks. > > > > Secondly, having recently re-engaged in this project, I've written > several > > emails in a similar vein to Julian's and then each time decided not to > send > > it. If I felt like saying this multiple times and Julian sat down and > > actually sent it, I would guess that others had similar > questions/concerns. > > > > ## General observations: > > - I think Julian and Vladimir are far and above the most prolific > > contributors on the project (by any measure I can use: code, commits, > email > > responses, longevity, consistency, releases, etc). [3] > > - I think Julian and Vladimir typically have the strongest opinions. > (This > > is pretty standard, the most prolific contributors typically have the > > strongest opinions.) > > - I think we have a general challenge around power asymmetry (people with > > power aren't always aware of how this power influences others). > > - I think Julian and Vladimir are the two project titans. People > frequently > > defer to them. When they go "mano a mano", it is challenging as there is > > less deference and more conflict. It also can devolve. > > > > ## Challenging Behaviors > > I see a few specific patterns occur frequently that I think are > challenging > > and we should strive to correct. These include: > > > > 1. Presenting traditions, personal preferences or opinions as "rules". > [2] > > 2. Being a dog with a bone (responding quickly and repeatedly to everyone > > who has a differing opinion). > > 3. General disrespectfulness (dismissive of others' perspective and/or > > opinions, condescending behavior, unilateral action). > > > > I think all three of these behaviors are net-negative for the community. > > > > ## Goals > > I think a few of things would help mitigate these challenges: > > > > A. For people in power, remember that your opinions are outsized. Apply > > them only where you think it is absolutely critical to the overall health > > of the community. You may have strong opinions about simple things. Do > your > > best to ignore these opinions because enforcing them only goes to > > further solidify the asymmetric nature of your relationship. > > B. For people in power, try to be the last to express an opinion as > opposed > > to the first or most frequent. For "opinion-type" threads, you should > > strive to be a small minority of the total messages. If you find yourself > > responding to every other sender, you're probably abusing your power. > > C. For everyone, call out behavior that you think violates the norms of > the > > community you want to be a part of. > > > > All three of these goals are very hard to accomplish. A&B rely on > > self-reflection (hard). C relies on those with less authority calling out > > those with more authority (very hard). > > > > To share my personal self-reflection: I'll admit to having done #2 a > couple > > of times. I also admit that I frequently fail to call out all three > > challenging behaviors when I see others exhibit them. The experience of > > these behaviors has substantially reduced my interest/effort to > contribute > > to the project both recently and at several times in years past. I will > do > > my best to avoid the 1/2/3 behaviors and follow the A/B/C goals. > > > > As I said at the top, I think it is important to leave space for others > to > > respond and will hold off responding more to this thread. My ask to > others > > would be to do your best at the goals I outlined as A,B and C above. > > > > [1] Authority here is meant as karma around contribution, not formal > Apache > > authority. > > [2] A challenging version of this frequently happens when someone "in > > power" is trying to provide feedback to someone "without power". What a > > person "in power" may intend as help or ideation may be interpreted as > > demand by the person "without power". Karmic authority in a community > like > > Calcite can frequently approximate power. > > [3] While they are the top two contributors, it would be unfair to say > they > > were equal in their scale of contribution and I don't mean to imply such. > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 9:45 AM Julian Hyde <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hey community, I need your help. You might have noticed that Vladimir > > > and I are fighting it out in a long email thread [1]. > > > > > > I find it stressful and time-consuming to be involved in threads such > > > as this with Vladimir. And I find myself taking out my frustrations on > > > my family. I should not have to go through this. > > > > > > Ten years ago Ceki Gülcü, founder of Log4j, wrote a blog post on why > > > he left Apache [2]. It's a great post, and you should read it. > > > Vladimir himself has cited it in other Apache threads recently, > > > although he probably identifies with different personas in the post > > > than I do. > > > > > > One of the themes of the blog post is that the community must step in > > > and enforce culture, and not give trolls the benefit of the doubt. > > > > > > Read the article, and having read it, if you agree, step up. > > > > > > Julian > > > > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gjytkp4obzh8lnn686cwlb87y07nq6f6 > > > > > > [2] > > > > > > http://ceki.blogspot.com/2010/05/forces-and-vulnerabilites-of-apache.html > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > no mistakes > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >
