Can't agree more: A. For people in power, remember that your opinions are outsized. Apply them only where you think it is absolutely critical to the overall health of the community. You may have strong opinions about simple things. Do your best to ignore these opinions because enforcing them only goes to further solidify the asymmetric nature of your relationship.
B. For people in power, try to be the last to express an opinion as opposed to the first or most frequent. For "opinion-type" threads, you should strive to be a small minority of the total messages. If you find yourself responding to every other sender, you're probably abusing your power. Regards! Aron Tao Jacques Nadeau <[email protected]> 于2021年12月23日周四 04:29写道： > This is a hard message to respond to. Hopefully my comments will reduce the > friction for others to share their own observations. Something that I will > reiterate here is that Julian posted this on a public forum which is a > request to not only get feedback from committers and PMC members but the > community at large. To help facilitate this, I would suggest that more > active project members only make a single response to this to allow "space" > for others to provide their feedback. > > Firstly, at least for me, it is a hard time of year to have this kind of > nuanced & sensitive conversation since I'm doing a lot of holiday family > stuff in the coming weeks. > > Secondly, having recently re-engaged in this project, I've written several > emails in a similar vein to Julian's and then each time decided not to send > it. If I felt like saying this multiple times and Julian sat down and > actually sent it, I would guess that others had similar questions/concerns. > > ## General observations: > - I think Julian and Vladimir are far and above the most prolific > contributors on the project (by any measure I can use: code, commits, email > responses, longevity, consistency, releases, etc). [3] > - I think Julian and Vladimir typically have the strongest opinions. (This > is pretty standard, the most prolific contributors typically have the > strongest opinions.) > - I think we have a general challenge around power asymmetry (people with > power aren't always aware of how this power influences others). > - I think Julian and Vladimir are the two project titans. People frequently > defer to them. When they go "mano a mano", it is challenging as there is > less deference and more conflict. It also can devolve. > > ## Challenging Behaviors > I see a few specific patterns occur frequently that I think are challenging > and we should strive to correct. These include: > > 1. Presenting traditions, personal preferences or opinions as "rules". [2] > 2. Being a dog with a bone (responding quickly and repeatedly to everyone > who has a differing opinion). > 3. General disrespectfulness (dismissive of others' perspective and/or > opinions, condescending behavior, unilateral action). > > I think all three of these behaviors are net-negative for the community. > > ## Goals > I think a few of things would help mitigate these challenges: > > A. For people in power, remember that your opinions are outsized. Apply > them only where you think it is absolutely critical to the overall health > of the community. You may have strong opinions about simple things. Do your > best to ignore these opinions because enforcing them only goes to > further solidify the asymmetric nature of your relationship. > B. For people in power, try to be the last to express an opinion as opposed > to the first or most frequent. For "opinion-type" threads, you should > strive to be a small minority of the total messages. If you find yourself > responding to every other sender, you're probably abusing your power. > C. For everyone, call out behavior that you think violates the norms of the > community you want to be a part of. > > All three of these goals are very hard to accomplish. A&B rely on > self-reflection (hard). C relies on those with less authority calling out > those with more authority (very hard). > > To share my personal self-reflection: I'll admit to having done #2 a couple > of times. I also admit that I frequently fail to call out all three > challenging behaviors when I see others exhibit them. The experience of > these behaviors has substantially reduced my interest/effort to contribute > to the project both recently and at several times in years past. I will do > my best to avoid the 1/2/3 behaviors and follow the A/B/C goals. > > As I said at the top, I think it is important to leave space for others to > respond and will hold off responding more to this thread. My ask to others > would be to do your best at the goals I outlined as A,B and C above. > > [1] Authority here is meant as karma around contribution, not formal Apache > authority. > [2] A challenging version of this frequently happens when someone "in > power" is trying to provide feedback to someone "without power". What a > person "in power" may intend as help or ideation may be interpreted as > demand by the person "without power". Karmic authority in a community like > Calcite can frequently approximate power. > [3] While they are the top two contributors, it would be unfair to say they > were equal in their scale of contribution and I don't mean to imply such. > > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 9:45 AM Julian Hyde <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hey community, I need your help. You might have noticed that Vladimir > > and I are fighting it out in a long email thread [1]. > > > > I find it stressful and time-consuming to be involved in threads such > > as this with Vladimir. And I find myself taking out my frustrations on > > my family. I should not have to go through this. > > > > Ten years ago Ceki Gülcü, founder of Log4j, wrote a blog post on why > > he left Apache [2]. It's a great post, and you should read it. > > Vladimir himself has cited it in other Apache threads recently, > > although he probably identifies with different personas in the post > > than I do. > > > > One of the themes of the blog post is that the community must step in > > and enforce culture, and not give trolls the benefit of the doubt. > > > > Read the article, and having read it, if you agree, step up. > > > > Julian > > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gjytkp4obzh8lnn686cwlb87y07nq6f6 > > > > [2] > > > http://ceki.blogspot.com/2010/05/forces-and-vulnerabilites-of-apache.html > > >
