Hi Kenneth,

As a Cassandra user I value usability, but since it's a database I value 
consistency and performance even more. If you want usability and documentation 
you can use Datastax DSE, after all that's where they add value on top of 
Cassandra. Since Datastax actually paid dev to work Cassandra internals, it's 
understandable that they kept some part (usability) for their own product. We 
all notice that when you google for some CQL commands you'll always end up to 
Datastax site, it would be great if that was not the case but it would take a 
lot of time.

Also, as a manager you're not supposed to fight with devs but to allocate 
tasks/time. If you have to choose between enhancing documentation and fixing 
this bad race condition that corrupts data, I hope you'd choose the later.

As for filling Jiras, if you create one like "I want a UI to setup TLS" it 
would be the kind of Jira nobody would implement, it takes a lot of time, 
touches security and may not be that useful in the end.

Last point on usability for Cassandra, as an end user it's very difficult to 
see the progress on it, but since I'm using Cassandra internals for my custom 
secondary index I can tell you that there was a huge rework between Cassandra 
2.2 and 3.x, PartitionIterators are a very elegant solution and is really 
helpful in my case, great work guys :)
Jacques-Henri Berthemet

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Brotman [mailto:kenbrot...@yahoo.com.INVALID] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 11:54 PM
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org
Cc: u...@cassandra.apache.org
Subject: RE: Cassandra Needs to Grow Up by Version Five!

Hi Akash,

I get the part about outside work which is why in replying to Jeff Jirsa I was 
suggesting the big companies could justify taking it on easy enough and you 
know actually pay the people who would be working at it so those people could 
have a life.

The part I don't get is the aversion to usability.  Isn't that what you think 
about when you are coding?  "Am I making this thing I'm building easy to use?"  
If you were programming for me, we would be constantly talking about what we 
are building and how we can make things easier for users.  If I had to fight 
with a developer, architect or engineer about usability all the time, they 
would be gone and quick.  How do approach programming if you aren't trying to 
make things easy.

Kenneth Brotman

-----Original Message-----
From: Akash Gangil [mailto:akashg1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:24 PM
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org
Cc: u...@cassandra.apache.org
Subject: Re: Cassandra Needs to Grow Up by Version Five!

I would second Jon in the arguments he made. Contributing outside work is 
draining and really requires a lot of commitment. If someone requires features 
around usability etc, just pay for it, period.

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Kenneth Brotman < 
kenbrot...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> Jon,
> Very sorry that you don't see the value of the time I'm taking for this.
> I don't have demands; I do have a stern warning and I'm right Jon.  
> Please be very careful not to mischaracterized my words Jon.
> You suggest I put things in JIRA's, then seem to suggest that I'd be 
> lucky if anyone looked at it and did anything. That's what I figured too.
> I don't appreciate the hostility.  You will understand more fully in 
> the next post where I'm coming from.  Try to keep the conversation civilized.
> I'm trying or at least so you understand I think what I'm doing is 
> saving your gig and mine.  I really like a lot of people is this group.
> I've come to a preliminary assessment on things.  Soon the cloud will 
> clear or I'll be gone.  Don't worry.  I'm a very peaceful person and 
> like you I am driven by real important projects that I feel compelled 
> to work on for the good of others.  I don't have time for people to 
> hand hold a database and I can't get stuck with my projects on the wrong 
> stuff.
> Kenneth Brotman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Haddad [mailto:jonathan.had...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jon 
> Haddad
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 12:44 PM
> To: u...@cassandra.apache.org
> Cc: dev@cassandra.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Cassandra Needs to Grow Up by Version Five!
> Ken,
> Maybe it’s not clear how open source projects work, so let me try to 
> explain.  There’s a bunch of us who either get paid by someone or 
> volunteer on our free time.  The folks that get paid, (yay!) usually 
> take direction on what the priorities are, and work on projects that 
> directly affect our jobs.  That means that someone needs to care 
> enough about the features you want to work on them, if you’re not going to do 
> it yourself.
> Now as others have said already, please put your list of demands in 
> JIRA, if someone is interested, they will work on it.  You may need to 
> contribute a little more than you’ve done already, be prepared to get 
> involved if you actually want to to see something get done.  Perhaps 
> learning a little more about Cassandra’s internals and the people 
> involved will reveal some of the design decisions and priorities of the 
> project.
> Third, you seem to be a little obsessed with market share.  While 
> market share is fun to talk about, *most* of us that are working on 
> and contributing to Cassandra do so because it does actually solve a 
> problem we have, and solves it reasonably well.  If some magic open 
> source DB appears out of no where and does everything you want 
> Cassandra to, and is bug free, keeps your data consistent, 
> automatically does backups, comes with really nice cert management, ad 
> hoc querying, amazing materialized views that are perfect, no caveats 
> to secondary indexes, and somehow still gives you linear scalability 
> without any mental overhead whatsoever then sure, people might start 
> using it.  And that’s actually OK, because if that happens we’ll all 
> be incredibly pumped out of our minds because we won’t have to work as 
> hard.  If on the slim chance that doesn’t manifest, those of us that 
> use Cassandra and are part of the community will keep working on the 
> things we care about, iterating, and improving things.  Maybe someone will 
> even take a look at your JIRA issues.
> Further filling the mailing list with your grievances will likely not 
> help you progress towards your goal of a Cassandra that’s easier to 
> use, so I encourage you to try to be a little more productive and try 
> to help rather than just complain, which is not constructive.  I did a 
> quick search for your name on the mailing list, and I’ve seen very 
> little from you, so to everyone’s who’s been around for a while and 
> trying to help you it looks like you’re just some random dude asking 
> for people to work for free on the things you’re asking for, without offering 
> anything back in return.
> Jon
> > On Feb 21, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Kenneth Brotman
> <kenbrot...@yahoo.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> > Josh,
> >
> > To say nothing is indifference.  If you care about your community,
> sometimes don't you have to bring up a subject even though you know 
> it's also temporarily adding some discomfort?
> >
> > As to opening a JIRA, I've got a very specific topic to try in mind
> now.  An easy one I'll work on and then announce.  Someone else will 
> have to do the coding.  A year from now I would probably just knock it 
> out to make sure it's as easy as I expect it to be but to be honest, 
> as I've been saying, I'm not set up to do that right now.  I've barely 
> looked at any Cassandra code; for one; everyone on this list probably 
> codes more than I do, secondly; and lastly, it's a good one for 
> someone that wants an easy one to start with: vNodes.  I've already 
> seen too many people seeking assistance with the vNode setting.
> >
> > And you can expect as others have been mentioning that there should 
> > be
> similar ones on compaction, repair and backup.
> >
> > Microsoft knows poor usability gives them an easy market to take over.
> And they make it easy to switch.
> >
> > Beginning at 4:17 in the video, it says the following:
> >
> >       "You don't need to worry about replica sets, quorum or read
> repair.  You can focus on writing correct application logic."
> >
> > At 4:42, it says:
> >       "Hopefully this gives you a quick idea of how seamlessly you 
> > can
> bring your existing Cassandra applications to Azure Cosmos DB.  No 
> code changes are required.  It works with your favorite Cassandra 
> tools and drivers including for example native Cassandra driver for 
> Spark. And it takes seconds to get going, and it's elastically and globally 
> scalable."
> >
> > More to come,
> >
> > Kenneth Brotman
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Josh McKenzie [mailto:jmcken...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 8:28 AM
> > To: dev@cassandra.apache.org
> > Cc: User
> > Subject: Re: Cassandra Needs to Grow Up by Version Five!
> >
> > There's a disheartening amount of "here's where Cassandra is bad, 
> > and
> here's what it needs to do for me for free" happening in this thread.
> >
> > This is open-source software. Everyone is *strongly encouraged* to
> submit a patch to move the needle on *any* of these things being 
> complained about in this thread.
> >
> > For the Apache Way 
> > <https://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/
> > che.org>
> > to
> work, people need to step up and meaningfully contribute to a project 
> to scratch their own itch instead of just waiting for a random 
> corporation-subsidized engineer to happen to have interests that align 
> with them and contribute that to the project.
> >
> > Beating a dead horse for things everyone on the project knows are
> serious pain points is not productive.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Oleksandr Shulgin <
> oleksandr.shul...@zalando.de> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 10:01 AM, Kenneth Brotman < 
> >> kenbrot...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>> Cluster wide management should be a big theme in any next major
> >> release.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Na. Stability and testing should be a big theme in the next major
> >> release.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Double Na on that one Jeff.  I think you have a concern there 
> >>> about the need to test sufficiently to ensure the stability of the 
> >>> next major release.  That makes perfect sense.- for every release, 
> >>> especially the major ones.  Continuous improvement is not a phase 
> >>> of development for example.  CI should be in everything, in every 
> >>> phase.  Stability and testing a part of every release not just one.
> >>> A major release should be
> >> a
> >>> nice step from the previous major release though.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I guess what Jeff refers to is the tick-tock release cycle 
> >> experiment, which has proven to be a complete disaster by popular
> opinion.
> >>
> >> There's also the "materialized views" feature which failed to 
> >> materialize in the end (pun intended) and had to be declared 
> >> experimental retroactively.
> >>
> >> Another prominent example is incremental repair which was 
> >> introduced as the default option in 2.2 and now is not recommended 
> >> to use because of so many corner cases where it can fail.  So again
> experimental as an afterthought.
> >>
> >> Not to mention that even if you are aware of the default 
> >> incremental and go with full repair instead, you're still up for a sad 
> >> surprise:
> >> anti-compaction will be triggered despite the "full" repair.  
> >> Because anti-compaction is only disabled in case of sub-range 
> >> repair (don't ask why), so you need to use something advanced like 
> >> Reaper if you want to avoid that.  I don't think you'll ever find 
> >> this in the
> documentation.
> >>
> >> Honestly, for an eventually-consistent system like Cassandra 
> >> anti-entropy repair is one of the most important pieces to get right.
> >> And Cassandra fails really badly on that one: the feature is not 
> >> really well designed, poorly implemented and under-documented.
> >>
> >> In a summary, IMO, Cassandra is a poor implementation of some good
> ideas.
> >> It is a collection of hacks, not features.  They sometimes play 
> >> together accidentally, and rarely by design.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> --
> >> Alex
> >>
> >
> >
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