I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to our users, or build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The origins of these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and direct experience.
Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project is fine, of course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also a deliberate learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies both approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform will be canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very real example of Conway's Law btw. [1] Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report them, and we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a very diverse community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web designers. We need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate to each other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day, it is our perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law [image: Inline image 1] On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams <to...@devgeeks.org> wrote: > Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to chime in in > support of the CLI. > > As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app, I would like to > let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers of the CLI > Kool-Aid since its infancy. > > We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/* is just a > build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole thing together > with Grunt). > > We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins as well and a > few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability to white label > it with relative ease. > > I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly advocate its use > when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel. > > Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the discussion. > > - tommy / devgeeks > On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.ka...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?) that both > > approaches should be supported :-) > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana <csantan...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow also to do something > > like > > > "cordova platform add ios --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios" > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana <csantan...@gmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > >> ++1 "to install from a given directory instead of .cordova/libs." > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras <vi...@users.sourceforge.net > > >wrote: > > >> > > >>> This might be true - it took me quite some time to figure out how the > > CLI > > >>> actually works - despite also having to fix one or two bugs for the > WPX > > >>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as the Windows 8 CLI code). > But > > >>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since I think once you are used > > to > > >>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still have those old > documents > > >>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE projects for the > different > > >>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete). > > >>> > > >>> So I guess supporting both methods is the way to go... :) > > >>> > > >>> Best, > > >>> Wolfgang > > >>> > > >>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny: > > >>> > > >>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy to see that you've > > figured > > >>>> out how to leverage the benefits and avoid the drawbacks of the new > > >>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased productivity for you. > > >>>> > > >>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too difficult for every > developer > > to > > >>>> learn what you already have. > > >>>> > > >>>> -Michal > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras < > vi...@users.sourceforge.net> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> my view on this discussion: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I've used the CLI to release the latest version of GOFG Sports > > Computer > > >>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for the "merges" directory is a > > fantastic > > >>>>> feature which allows me to focus on the javascript code using e.g. > > the > > >>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle all my platform specific code > > from > > >>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory structure - which is what > > Cordova > > >>>>> should be about. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to write clean code (not implying > that > > >>>>> the > > >>>>> other method forces to write messy code). If you need something > > native > > >>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which also makes the code reusable) - > no > > >>>>> need > > >>>>> to mess around in the native projects code - this also makes > > upgrading > > >>>>> cordova much easier. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone version I've simply added Android > > as a > > >>>>> platform, build it and I was done - no need for fiddling around > with > > >>>>> SDK / > > >>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing it). So CLI is my > favorite > > >>>>> way > > >>>>> to develop now - and it is far more powerful than the old approach > > (in > > >>>>> my > > >>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from fiddling around with project > > >>>>> settings, > > >>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform release. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom plugins, 5 official plugins > and > > >>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond the "Hello World" > application.... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't possible to work with the native > > IDEs > > >>>>> with their own projects - this is simply wrong since you can always > > go > > >>>>> to > > >>>>> the "platforms" directory and open the platform-projects using > their > > >>>>> native > > >>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself for e.g. plugin development). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Still I agree that both versions should be supported - but don't > make > > >>>>> the > > >>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs" only! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Best, > > >>>>> Wolfgang > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe Bowser: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michal Mocny < > mmo...@chromium.org> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its important to highlight that both > > >>>>>>> directions > > >>>>>>> for that arguments hold. We've done our best to support bin/ > > scripts > > >>>>>>> post > > >>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements like "CLI should not be used with > > IDE", or > > >>>>>>> "CLI > > >>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing something trivial" are being thrown > > >>>>>>> around, > > >>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion, and I don't think its fair that > > some > > >>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>> us > > >>>>>>> are promoting that message to users. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating with our users at all, so I > > don't > > >>>>>> see how this could be communicated. When users communicate their > > >>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something like this > > >>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**< > > http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**> > > >>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p://www.infil00p.org/config-** > > >>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731< > > > http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731 > > > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> ) > > >>>>>> and this > > >>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-****< > > http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**> > > >>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://**www.infil00p.org/introducing-** > > >>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694< > > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694 > > > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> ). > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while its not perfect, I strive to > learn > > >>>>>> its > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> limitations and make it better, not condemn it. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed for me, or developers like > me > > >>>>>> who like to see a big pile of output when things fail. I avoided > > >>>>>> having any part in its development because I thought it was the > > wrong > > >>>>>> way to do things. I assumed that the majority of users actually > > >>>>>> wanted this and that I should do my best to work around this, but > > with > > >>>>>> the backlash that we're getting, such as the blog posts and some > > >>>>>> comments on the Google Groups, it seems that this is a feature > very > > >>>>>> few people actually wanted. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView use case, I actually have never > tried > > >>>>>> that. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make sure it works well post-3.0, or does > > Joe > > >>>>>>> have > > >>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing this? > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the Android repository to make sure > that > > >>>>>> this still works. However, I would like to see this test case > > >>>>>> revisited since it may be more appropriate to have CordovaActivity > > be > > >>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface, or for both to be > supported. > > >>>>>> This is so that we can make more hybrid applications and deal with > > the > > >>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint with Android UI > guidelines > > >>>>>> instead of just ignoring it. I'll probably bring this up and > > present > > >>>>>> more source code when it's ready to explain why we need this > feature > > >>>>>> in the next couple of weeks, and why it's important to respect the > > >>>>>> platform, even when the platform doesn't respect the web. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy > > >>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> -- > > >>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy > > >>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Carlos Santana > > >> <csantan...@gmail.com> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Carlos Santana > > > <csantan...@gmail.com> > > >
