Oh we tried to help. And yes we asked. We were very rudely treated. On and off list. (Or, I was anyhow.)
I'm all for being positive, and I generally am, but I am also not interested in perpetuating a revisionist narrative about how apache has been great to work with. I have always maintained a professional dialogue even when receiving personal attacks and threats. The records show that and I can sleep at night. Can that change? I continue to hope so. Not even a month ago I was harassed by a member. I'll be at apachecon to discuss f2f since email had proven to be a terrible medium so far. On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 12:47 PM Andrew Grieve <[email protected]> wrote: > Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now, but I > will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later (some > of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it anyways). > > Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not constructive. > If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the sake > of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about others > almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being > negative towards. > > Another angle: > Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your views are > your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF" make it > sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just makes > people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to contribute to > a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where people > are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email tone > positive even when you disagree. > > Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers (we > are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful: > - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one up. > - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared > instance. > - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a collaboration > between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained, but > didn't do the work to make it possible). > - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although we > decided not to stick with it). > > Why can we not use Github issues? > - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github. > - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that > hasn't happened yet. > - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do issue > trackers count as "data"? > - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have. > - [email protected] would be a great place to start, since that's > meant for cross-project discussion. > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it is > > > offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and why > *I* > > > dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the > Stack > > > Overflow survey). > > > > > > > > Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the tone > > you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal > attack > > on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments only > > reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree with > me, > > because we're still here. > > > > Joe > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:[email protected]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy? > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional > > > > influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and > > > > participation. > > > > > > > > > > > That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are > > clearly > > > people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to > fight > > > the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, > and > > > I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave. > > > > > > > > > > To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way > they > > > > are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose > > > > changes that work. > > > > > > > > > > > Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose > > rules > > > aren't as rigid. That could work too. > > > > > > > > > > Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. > > > > Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some > > > > individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their > > > > voices are usually drowned out. > > > > > > > > > > > I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we > > donated > > > the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been > complained > > > about so many times by our community members who have followed us since > > we > > > started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who > > feel > > > like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince > > > everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since > > your > > > organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of > > the > > > JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we > haven't > > > forked yet. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Carlos Santana<mailto:[email protected]> > > > > Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM > > > > To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy? > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while > > > > at the same time without being punched in the face :-) > > > > > > > > Marcel, > > > > I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you > talk > > > > to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova > > > > developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the > > > > understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place > > like > > > I layout in my email? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana < > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github. > > > > > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Use Github Issues > > > > > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way > > > > > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create > > > > > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing > this > > > > > > with mentions of jira CB-xxxx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate > > > > GitHub > > > > > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems > > > > > just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to > > > > > dump JIRA > > > > and > > > > > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache > > > > > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less > > > > > accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache > > > > > > Foundation, > > > > to > > > > > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the > > > > > > community > > > > they > > > > > > should still continue to interface in Github. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving > > > > > the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to > > > > > use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One > thing > > > > > that I think we > > > > don't > > > > > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and > how > > > > these > > > > > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared > > > > > about > > > > such > > > > > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a survey it's always biased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem > > > > > > > is > > > > > > clearly > > > > > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. > > > > > > > They > > > > > think > > > > > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days". > > > > > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile > web > > > > > > > nor anything relative to the mobile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most > > > > > > > of > > > > them > > > > > > are > > > > > > > native :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Stéphane Bachelier, > > > > > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09 > > > > > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire < > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the > > > > details > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of > the > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > done > > > > > > > > and appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't > think > > > > > > > > I am > > > > > the > > > > > > > > only one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as > > > > > > > > good as > > > > > > native > > > > > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do > > > > > > > > for > > > > the > > > > > > > apps I > > > > > > > > work on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman < > [email protected] > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the > > > > > > > > > graphics > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few > > > > > > > > > possible > > > > > > reasons: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 > > > > > > > > > years > > > > > ago. > > > > > > > Even > > > > > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps > > > > > > > > > still > > > > > hang > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > people's minds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, > > > > > > > > > buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern > > > > > > > > > WebKit views, > > > > but > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that > > > > > > > > > recommended > > > > > using > > > > > > > CSS > > > > > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed > > > > > > > > > my > > > > whole > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better > because > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > it. I > > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like > > > > > > > > > that > > > > for > > > > > > > > making > > > > > > > > > top-notch apps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > iOS-style > > > > > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android > > > > > > > > > users > > > > > > > expect > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tyler > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks < > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the > > > > > > > > > >score > > > > is > > > > > > low > > > > > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and > > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > default > > > > > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional > - > > > > > > > > > >Git > > > > > > Bash, > > > > > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven > > > > > > > > > >development, and > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > >full > > > > > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving > > > > > > > > > >this and > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > >Visual > > > > > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those > > > > > > > > > >survey > > > > > > > results > > > > > > > > > >improve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the > > > > > developers > > > > > > > > > >using > > > > > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing > > > > nothing > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the > > > > > JS->Native->JS > > > > > > > > > >bridge. > > > > > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos > > > > > communitcation > > > > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > > > >> plugins. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if > anything > > > > > special > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a > problem. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS > frameworks/libs > > > > which > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > >not > > > > > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of > > > > > > > > > >> that > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power > > > > > > > > > >> of the > > > > > > > > > >cordova > > > > > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:[email protected]] > > > > > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56 > > > > > > > > > >> An: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making > > > > > > > > > >> developers > > > > > happy? > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, > > > > > > > > > >> because > > > > > > > > > >everyone can > > > > > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova > > > > > applications > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova > > > > application > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up > > > > > > > > > >> re-writing it > > > > > and > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it > > > > > > > > > >> natively > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > >that's > > > > > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time > > > > > > > > > >> soon, and > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > >those > > > > > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can > > > > > > > > > >> create a > > > > > > shitty > > > > > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development > for > > > > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > reason, > > > > > > > > > >and at > > > > > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult > > > > > > > > > >> because I > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > >Drupal > > > > > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I > > > > > > > > > >> don't > > > > > think > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > >should > > > > > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most > > > > > > > > > >> developers > > > > are > > > > > > > > > >terrible > > > > > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're > > > > > > > > > >> releasing > > > > > isn't > > > > > > > > > >terrible. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo > > > > > > > > > ><[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer > Survey > > > > > > > > > >> > ( > > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015 > > > ). > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies: > > > > > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2% > > > > > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0% > > > > > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2% > > > > > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6% > > > > > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8% > > > > > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2% > > > > > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2% > > > > > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% > > > ************** > > > > > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7% > > > > > > > > > >> > Other 57.3% > > > > > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech > > > > > > > > > >> > but > > > > > have > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some > > > > > > > > > >> > possible > > > > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but > > > > > > > > > >> > rather > > > > > > looking > > > > > > > > > >for > > > > > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express > > > > > > frustration > > > > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > > > >> Cordova: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to > > the > > > > > > answer > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native > > apps > > > in > > > > > > > > > >JavaScript + > > > > > > > > > >> > HTML5 > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem > > (learnability | > > > > > > > > > >usability | > > > > > > > > > >> > reliability) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, > > articles, > > > > > > books) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Leo > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tyler Freeman > > > > > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from mobile > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Cordialement, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voltaire José-luc > > > > > > > > Directeur Technique > > > > > > > > Netdevices > > > > > > > > e-mail : [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Carlos Santana > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Carlos Santana > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > >
