What benefits does Apache provide that outweigh the negatives of not being able to use a bug tracker that more people may prefer? And I don't ask that sarcastically - I'm honestly curious. I'd assume *anywhere* Cordova existed would have benefits and negatives, but if others feel that Apache's benefits do not outweigh the negatives, is it time to open a new thread/discussion about that?
I know I've seen - seemingly to me - odd issues with the Apache rules on the Ripple list too. Some of the policies seem truly weird. I assume there is deep reasoning behind each rule, but if Apache is *not* flexible and this group decides it would be more beneficial to move, why not just do so? On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Joe Bowser <bows...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote: > >> >> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional >> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and >> participation. >> >> > That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are clearly > people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight > the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and > I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave. > > >> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they are >> and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose changes >> that work. >> >> > Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose rules > aren't as rigid. That could work too. > > >> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. Instead >> it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some individuals >> who certainly do not fit into this category, but their voices are usually >> drowned out. >> >> > I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we donated > the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained > about so many times by our community members who have followed us since we > started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who feel > like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince > everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since your > organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of the > JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't > forked yet. > > Joe > > Ross >> >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantan...@gmail.com> >> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM >> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy? >> >> Joe, >> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while at the >> same time without being punched in the face :-) >> >> Marcel, >> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk to >> Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova developers to >> see if what is the possibility to use github with the understanding that >> there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bows...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <csantan...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github. >> > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway. >> > > >> > > 1. Use Github Issues >> > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way >> > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create >> > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with >> > > mentions of jira CB-xxxx. >> > > >> > > >> > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate >> GitHub >> > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems just >> > getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to dump JIRA >> and >> > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache >> > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to >> > our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard. >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, >> to >> > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community >> they >> > > should still continue to interface in Github. >> > > >> > > >> > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF >> > would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for >> > everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing that I think we >> don't >> > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how >> these >> > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared about >> such >> > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly. >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <stephane.bachel...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > As a survey it's always biased. >> > > > >> > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is >> > > clearly >> > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They >> > think >> > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days". >> > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor >> > > > anything relative to the mobile. >> > > > >> > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of >> them >> > > are >> > > > native :) >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > Stéphane Bachelier, >> > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09 >> > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2 >> > > > >> > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire < >> > > > jose-luc.volta...@netdevices.fr >> > > > >: >> > > > >> > > > > Hi, >> > > > > >> > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova. >> > > > > >> > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the >> details >> > > > about >> > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work >> > > done >> > > > > and appreciate it. >> > > > > >> > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am >> > the >> > > > > only one. >> > > > > >> > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as >> > > native >> > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for >> the >> > > > apps I >> > > > > work on! >> > > > > >> > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate! >> > > > > >> > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <ty...@drumpants.com>: >> > > > > >> > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics >> > and >> > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible >> > > reasons: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years >> > ago. >> > > > Even >> > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still >> > hang >> > > in >> > > > > > people's minds. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery >> > > > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, >> but >> > > > it's >> > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended >> > using >> > > > CSS >> > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my >> whole >> > > way >> > > > > of >> > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of >> > it. I >> > > > > think >> > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that >> for >> > > > > making >> > > > > > top-notch apps. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their >> > > iOS-style >> > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users >> > > > expect >> > > > > a >> > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about >> > > this. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Tyler >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks < >> > > > > mich...@michaelbrooks.ca> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score >> is >> > > low >> > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the >> > > default >> > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git >> > > Bash, >> > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and >> > no >> > > > > > >full >> > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and >> > as >> > > > > > >Visual >> > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey >> > > > results >> > > > > > >improve. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel < >> > d.top...@cadenas.de> >> > > > > > >wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-) >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the >> > developers >> > > > > > >using >> > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing >> nothing >> > > > about >> > > > > > >the >> > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the >> > JS->Native->JS >> > > > > > >bridge. >> > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos >> > communitcation >> > > > > > >with >> > > > > > >> plugins. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything >> > special >> > > is >> > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs >> which >> > > are >> > > > > > >not >> > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that >> :-) >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the >> > > > > > >cordova >> > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >> > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bows...@gmail.com] >> > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56 >> > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org >> > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers >> > happy? >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because >> > > > > > >everyone can >> > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova >> > applications >> > > > is >> > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova >> application >> > > > from >> > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it >> > and >> > > > if >> > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively >> > because >> > > > > > >that's >> > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and >> > > both >> > > > > > >those >> > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a >> > > shitty >> > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a >> > > reason, >> > > > > > >and at >> > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I >> > > think >> > > > > > >Drupal >> > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't >> > think >> > > we >> > > > > > >should >> > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers >> are >> > > > > > >terrible >> > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing >> > isn't >> > > > > > >terrible. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo >> > > > > > ><leo.treggi...@intel.com> >> > > > > > >> wrote: >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey ( >> > > > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015). >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies: >> > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2% >> > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0% >> > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2% >> > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6% >> > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8% >> > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2% >> > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2% >> > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% ************** >> > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7% >> > > > > > >> > Other 57.3% >> > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but >> > have >> > > > not >> > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so. >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible >> > > answers. >> > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather >> > > looking >> > > > > > >for >> > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express >> > > frustration >> > > > > > >with >> > > > > > >> Cordova: >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the >> > > answer >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in >> > > > > > >JavaScript + >> > > > > > >> > HTML5 >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability | >> > > > > > >usability | >> > > > > > >> > reliability) >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, >> > > books) >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > Leo >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Tyler Freeman >> > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Sent from mobile >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > Cordialement, >> > > > > >> > > > > Voltaire José-luc >> > > > > Directeur Technique >> > > > > Netdevices >> > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.volta...@netdevices.fr >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Carlos Santana >> > > <csantan...@gmail.com> >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Carlos Santana >> <csantan...@gmail.com> >> -- =========================================================================== Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM Email : raymondcam...@gmail.com Blog : www.raymondcamden.com Twitter: raymondcamden --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cordova.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cordova.apache.org
