Thanks Ted, for the calm words.
On 6 Feb 2009, at 19:20, Ted Leung wrote:
On Feb 6, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Damien Katz wrote:
This may hint at one of my biggest concerns here, the
balkanization of the PMC from the rest of the community. I don't
think I've ever seen a project where the dividing line between the
PMC and the rest of the community was so often and brightly drawn.
Please tell me more about this brightly drawn line. We should get
rid of it.
I don't know if this is what Geir means, but there is a lot of use
of the letters PMC in messages on the list. Much more than usual,
in my experience. That may sound like a small thing, but that
kind of small thing, repeated over time, can lead to a highly
stratified community, which is undesirable.
As for my part, I was simply adapting ASF terminology and wrote PMC
where I meant "the individual contributers, Chris, Chris, Damien, Noah
and Jan". In no way I was trying to draw a line or fence anybody out.
Sorry, if things came across that way. I didn't know "the PMC" is a
"red flag" when talking community :)
Cheers
Jan
--
There's a comment later in this thread where Chris describes his
role as ... well, for lack of better words, your handler, to
shield you from the community. Things like that feed my
perception. More on that later.
I have an idea :
1) Stop coding.
No. The changes I am making need to be made regardless. They
encompass much more than just the transaction change.
Is there a way to commit some of the unrelated changes over time?
I find that it's easier to understand a series of small patches as
opposed to large ones.
Then why are you being so combative and insulting to our team?
Damien, I am sorry that this has ended up at such a contentious place.
The only complaint is that I didn't run some stuff over the mailing
list before writing code.
I think that part of why we are having contention is wrapped up in
the sentence above. When I read this sentence, I feel that you are
being dismissive of the use of mailing lists. When I originally
chimed in on this thread it was in response to your statement that
the decision was made in IRC:
On Feb 4, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Damien Katz wrote:
Ideally yes, but real time communication with everyone together is
damn useful.
-Damien
On Feb 5, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
Uh, project decisions are supposed to be made in the public
mailing lists...
Ted
On Feb 4, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Damien Katz wrote:
This decision was discussed and made on IRC.
-Damien
Honestly, I felt that your response was dismissive of my concern.
The ASF has minimal requirements of projects but one of the key
requirements is that decisions be made on the public mailing lists,
in a way that invites participate of an ever growing community.
There is probably no quicker way for a project to invite scrutiny
than to have something seem not quite right in this area. Time and
again problems in this area have proved to lead to problems with a
project. I was, and am, responding to something that experience
tells me is a warning sign. I am not trying to disparage you or
the project by doing this. The reason I am writing this now is
that I want to be sure that I am conveying how important this issue
is, not only to, but to the the foundation as a whole.
I haven't checked in anything yet, and I won't until we've had more
discussion, review and testing. This problem is a non-issue,
I look forward to seeing the code, and the ensuing discussion.
Ted
