Cleaned up the wiki page, changed Documentation to Wiki, etc, etc. On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Noah Slater <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks to Bob for adding Quick Links to the header menu. Getting to JIRA > is now too quick clicks. (I had added this myself during development but it > was buggy. I dunno why it is no longer buggy. Very strange!) > > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Noah Slater <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I have added your Markmail point to the wiki. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Noah Slater <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Miles Fidelman < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> With all due respect and appreciation for your efforts.... marketing is >>>> one thing, utility is another. While there's value to marketing, (IMHO) >>>> utility counts more. We're not talking about a magazine ad, we're talking >>>> about a web site that people have taken some effort to find and go to - >>>> they're (we're) looking for information - if the information isn't there, >>>> it doesn't matter how pretty the site is. >>>> >>> >>> I've been building websites for clients for the best part of a decade, >>> so I assure you that I understand your points here. ;) When I said "a >>> marketing site" I meant that it's primary purpose is to market CouchDB to >>> new users. Not that we should think of it as a print ad. Trust me, I have >>> worked with people who do think about websites like this, and I know how >>> crazy that attitude is. >>> >>> >>> >>>> For evaluators (and I do a lot of software evaluation), the questions >>>> are: >>>> - what is this thing >>>> - what are the details (functionality, architecture, implementation) >>>> - is the project "alive" (not in terms of a pretty site, but in terms >>>> of an active community of users and developers) - which implies things that >>>> change (blog, news, events, mailing lists with lots of activity, bug >>>> tracker that shows things getting fixed, ....) >>>> - who's using it >>>> - details of what's involved in using it (demo, install instructions, >>>> documentation, some slideshows) >>>> - a sense of the community (blog, archives, forums, links to related >>>> sites) >>>> >>> >>> Agreed! >>> >>> >>>> For new users, what counts are documentation, tutorials, FAQs, an >>>> active and friendly support community. >>>> >>> >>> Agreed, I think we could add a new section. This is already on the wiki. >>> >>> http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Website_Design >>> >>> I am starting to wonder if anyone is even checking this page! ;) >>> >>> No body has added anything to it since I created it, and yet this thread >>> rages on. ;) >>> >>> >>>> For experienced users, updates, detailed documentation, code libraries >>>> (when users are developing stuff), support for odd problems, ... >>>> >>> >>> This belongs on the wiki for now. >>> >>> The website is a single serving website. >>> >>> That is intentional, and I'd like to keep it that way. >>> >>> The wiki should be our primary focus for detailed information. >>> >>> >>>> For contributors it becomes a matter of technical documentation, >>>> community, easy-to-access CVS and bugtraq, lists and community.... >>>> >>> >>> Contributors should be focusing on the wiki too IMO. The "marketing >>> site" or "homepage" or whatever you want to call our single serving website >>> is not a one stop shop for everything to do with CouchDB. It's a primer, an >>> intro, a landing page, a set of sign posts. Committers should know enough >>> about the project to be able to use bookmarks, and use the wiki to provide >>> more in-depth resources/links. >>> >>> >>>> Sure, all the better if the stuff looks pretty, but more important that >>>> things are there and EASY TO FIND (I emphasize this last point as it seems >>>> to be the primary criticism people are raising. Most of the other things >>>> exist, somewhere - it's finding them that's difficult.) >>>> >>> >>> Just to clarify, it is ONE person who is saying that the JIRA link is >>> hard to find. And that one person is a committer. It just so happens that >>> our user focused single serving website has moved his usual "link to get me >>> JIRA" out of the way, and he's annoyed about it. I can understand that, but >>> I am also trying to keep his concerns in context. >>> >>> >>>> Mind you, I'm more of a function over form kind of guy, and a sample of >>>> one, but when I lay the mongodb web site next to the couchdb web site >>>> (since people seem to compare the two pieces of software quite a bit), the >>>> mongo home page is uglier, but a lot easier to navigate. >>>> >>> >>> The MongoDB website is easier to navigate? Heh. Ours is one page. By >>> definition, there is no navigation, just scrolling. ;) Perhaps you mean >>> that the sign posts to other resources are clearer. Again, all we've done >>> is move our sign posts to the bottom of the page. We are, clearly, >>> optimising for a specific use case here. Joe Random clicking on a link, and >>> asking "WTF IS COUCHDB?" We answer that quite well, I think. Or at least, >>> better than we used to. And there is certainly room for improvement. We >>> could cram all of our project signposts in to the header, but we would be >>> sacrificing the simplicity of the site, and the key focus on "WTF IS >>> COUCHDB?" and "WHERE DO I DOWNLOAD?" >>> >>> >>>> One thing that disturbed me, was a comment that there's no link to the >>>> markmail archive because it's not "official." That seems like a rather >>>> unproductive approach to building and supporting a user community - links >>>> to other resources should be encouraged, not discouraged - both as a way to >>>> make the main site useful, and as a sign that the community is "alive." >>> >>> >>> You have misinterpreted me. "Unofficial" resources are great! But with a >>> single serving site you have to make some trade-offs in the name of >>> simplicity. We have, in the design, a single link to the web interfaces for >>> the mailing lists. So we have, naturally, chosen to link to the official >>> ASF web interface. The Markmail links deserve a mention, but not here. >>> There are other places we can promote them. >>> >> >> >
