Hey Niclas, Your comment to Ted below assumed ill-will, was redundant to your previous comments, and seems likely to provoke an angry response.
dev@diversity is a working list intended for coordinating tasks such as survey design, and Outreachy coordination. I would ask two things of you: a.) That you move your discussion about the justification of a diversity effort at Apache to [email protected]. b.) That you make it a personal goal to engage constructively, with the intention both to learn and to teach, and with the assumption that you are able to do both. If you want to better understand my first request: This is akin to my asking you to move a question about how NetBeans is better than Eclipse to the user@netbeans list. [email protected] is intended for questions and requests by consumers and potential consumers of the work product of the Diversity group. Best Regards, Myrle BTW: I was the moderator who rejected your previous comment to private@. I have decided that was a mistake on my part. Because the Diversity group had not chosen to place you "on moderation," moderating your comment was an overstep on my part. If you *had* been "on moderation", I would have rejected the comment below for the reasons I have described in this e-mail. However you would still have had the opportunity to rephrase your e-mail and resend it. On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 6:31 PM Niclas Hedhman <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes, I was referring to Kylin et al. > > And I see that you also completely missed my point, not even attempting to > see it, but I won't beat dead horses. > > Niclas > > > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Ted Dunning <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Nicolas, > > > > We do have enormous parts of the world which do not participate much in > > Apache (and thus are isolated) > > > > There are limits to participation ... perhaps not EXplicit limits, but > > there are definitely IMplicit limitations. > > > > And please provide some basis for your claim that there are Apache > projects > > are do not have a majority of straight white males. In fact, I will up > the > > ante .. let's say straight white males from the US and western Europe. > Are > > you thinking of a few groups like Singa or Kylin that have a surprisingly > > large number of participants from Asia? Those are almost the exception > that > > proves the rule. > > > > And, by the way, the argument for diversity is a bit more substantial > than > > your strawman argument. The real argument is that diverse experience and > > expertise leads to better solutions because with a community made up of > > nearly identical members, these members will tend to have very similar > > blindspots. A great example of this is ASCII. The developers (English > > speakers in the US in the late 50's and early 60's) saw no real problem > > with omitting ü, å, ø and ñ. Even when the community broadened to include > > speakers of German, Danish, French, Spanish, Swedish and other languages, > > it took many decades to correct the limitations of ASCII. More diversity > > earlier would have saved some of that pain. I have seen many other > examples > > in my career where early designs had horrendous problems that could have > > easily been avoided with a bit broader set of points of view. A > > mono-culture may get started more quickly and be more comfortable early > on, > > but a diverse community is likely to give us a much better result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 6:14 PM Niclas Hedhman <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > The argument goes something like this (strawman warning); By expanding > > our > > > communities with identifiably under-represented groups (that should > have > > an > > > interest in what the ASF is doing) will bring additional points of > view, > > > new ideas, ways to do things, cultural input to the software and such. > > > > > > Personally, I don't think our communities are like society as a whole, > > > because a) we are not isolated geographically, b) has no limitation on > > > joining our efforts and c) straight, white males is an under > represented > > > group in some projects, and answering "why?" for that, will most likely > > > answer the question on a broader scale for what makes ASF different. > But > > > that is probably a too sensitive topic to touch on... > > > > > > Niclas > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:52 AM Awasum Yannick <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and > > Tech > > > > industry in general? > > > > > > > > I know this has been touched in different threads all over the lists > > but > > > I > > > > wanted a separate thread to really understand the advantages. > > > > > > > > Is it about under represented people participating and contributing > > their > > > > opinions and experience to make a project, product or community > better? > > > > > > > > I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well > > > > represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I > > > work? > > > > Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them? > > > > > > > > Sorry, if this is off topic but I have not been able to answer it > from > > > the > > > > perspective of an over represented person. Because, I keep asking > > myself > > > > why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if > > they > > > > dont see a benefit for them(self interest). > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > Awasum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer > > > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java > > > > > > > > -- > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java >
