Don't you just need an Apache Hop job running batch somewhere to suck up the archive and email it to the dev list? ;)
On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:25 PM Hans Van Akelyen < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi All, > > In the meantime we have been working on the public archive. > It still needs some minor tweaks but those will be resolved soon, and then > we need to add the links to our website. > An example for the dev page can be found here > http://chatlogs.project-hop.org/dev.txt > > We still need to add an index page to http://chatlogs.project-hop.org/ > with > a listing of all public channels. > We are extracting and publishing the content daily, an extra feature could > be to add a weekly summary mail to the dev list. > > Cheers, > Hans > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:46 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > I remain skeptical about us having the discipline and man power for a > > weekly summary to the mailing list, but I'm ok with giving it a try. > > > > Would you consider the proposal to send an automated weekly email with > > the contents of the dev channel from that week? I think that would be > > really useful to connect the two mediums. Also, it is great for > > archiving the chat. > > > > In any case, (2) seems to be the main objective here. Personally, I > > think emails are the better medium to conduct design discussions. > > > > -Max > > > > On 20.01.21 23:00, Julian Hyde wrote: > > > Sounds good, Matt. > > > > > > #2 is the important one: try to drive discussions onto dev@. You won't > > > always succeed - discussions have a habit of just springing up - but do > > > your best. > > > > > > Julian > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:23 AM Matt Casters <[email protected] > > .invalid> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> You are actually our champion Max, thanks for helping out :-) > > >> > > >> I was just looking to see what the problems could possibly be to then > > >> address those. > > >> I'll remind our mentors that we've followed their advice in 100% of > the > > >> cases so far, also on this topic. All in all I think things are going > > >> great. > > >> > > >> So yes, I'm not against the idea of writing a resume if things get > > heated > > >> on the dev channel. That being said, devs have started conversations > > here > > >> lately and major re-architectures are expected to die down a bit now. > > The > > >> architecture of Hop is such that most of the action happens in the > > plugins, > > >> not in the core. > > >> > > >> So here is my multi-layered approach proposal: > > >> 1) Accept Saurabh's proposal to help out with writing a weekly summary > > >> 2) Continue to drive important discussions out of the #dev chat > channel > > >> over here to the dev@ mailing list > > >> 3) Continue to think of ways to promote participation with swag but > not > > for > > >> this purpose > > >> 4) Wrap up the work on the lurking @archivebot in the #dev channel to > > make > > >> all chats publically and freely available. > > >> > > >> Unless anyone has any major concerns we'll continue along these lines. > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> Matt > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 12:07 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Circling back here. I was skeptical about this idea, just because I > > >>> haven't seen such ideas working unless people get paid for it. > Creating > > >>> a weekly summary is work, more work on top of the voluntary work we > do > > >>> here. > > >>> > > >>> Perhaps an automatically generated weekly email to the mailing list > > >>> containing all the messages of the dev chat for that week would work > > >>> better. Could that be accomplished easily? > > >>> > > >>> I'm still thinking it would make sense to move all dev communication > to > > >>> the mailing list. I'm not here to decide that though, I'm just a > mentor > > >> :) > > >>> > > >>> -Max > > >>> > > >>> On 11.01.21 19:23, Saurabh Deshmukh wrote: > > >>>> Hi Matt, > > >>>> > > >>>> Thumbs up! I will be able to help you in creating weekly status > > emails. > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 5:52 PM Matt Casters < > [email protected] > > >>> .invalid> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Alright so here's an idea: why don't we create a weekly status mail > > >>> about > > >>>>> those things discussed on the chat server that are even a little > bit > > >>>>> important. > > >>>>> It allows us to review what's important while providing the > > >> opportunity > > >>> to > > >>>>> ask folks to post their topics to this mailing list. > > >>>>> In the short term it creates an archive and in the longer run we > can > > >>>>> bootstrap this mailing list. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> We can ask for volunteers but I'd be happy to do it first. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Thoughts? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Matt > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 4:11 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected] > > > > >>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I don't think anything is stopping the community from posting to > the > > >>>>>> mailing list. They just have to start doing it more. That's why we > > >> are > > >>>>>> having this discussion. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Part of the incubation process is to align the project with the > ASF. > > >>>>>> This comes with some limitation of freedom. If maximum freedom is > > >>>>>> desired, the ASF is not the ideal place to be, although the ASF > does > > >>>>>> permit a fair amount of freedom in return for a great community, > > >>>>>> infrastructure, and legislative support. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I'd be skeptical about any kind of compensation for posting to the > > >>>>>> mailing list. However, I think it is important to keep track of > > merit > > >>>>>> (which could be posts to the mailing list), such that we can add > as > > >>> many > > >>>>>> new committers as possible. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -Max > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 11.01.21 13:43, Matt Casters wrote: > > >>>>>>> I'm just trying to get to the heart of the issue here Max. I > don't > > >>>>>>> necessarily disagree as stated earlier. > > >>>>>>> Once we have a list of concerns and things that prevent folks > from > > >>>>>> joining > > >>>>>>> and/or posting on dev we can do something about it. > > >>>>>>> As was mentioned earlier this is not something singularly > affecting > > >>> Hop > > >>>>>> so > > >>>>>>> I'm sure we can learn from other projects as well. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Before we go there, let's pile on a bit more since it seems to me > > >> that > > >>>>>> this > > >>>>>>> is treated as a major concern and I think the Hop devs see it as > > >> such. > > >>>>>>> My impression is that the ASF, and as a consequence dev mailing > > >> lists > > >>>>> as > > >>>>>>> well, are seen as a Very Big Thing and that folks are in general > > >> quite > > >>>>>>> reluctant, even afraid, to post something. > > >>>>>>> I think this especially is painful and diametrically opposed to > > >>>>> building > > >>>>>>> great software where insights come around in an iterative > fashion. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> So again, I'd be very interested in hearing from our mentors how > we > > >>> can > > >>>>>>> alleviate this so that we can have more lively discussions on > dev. > > >>>>>>> I'm thinking along the lines of rewarding participation with swag > > >> and > > >>>>> so > > >>>>>>> on. We're not Google but we're not completely poor sods either > are > > >> we > > >>>>>> :-) > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>> Matt > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 12:36 PM Maximilian Michels < > > [email protected] > > >>> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> The core problem is fragmentation. I would follow Hop > development > > >>> more > > >>>>>>>> closely if I wouldn't have to monitor yet another chat client. > > >> Having > > >>>>>>>> one source of truth, is what we should strive for. Again, this > > >>> doesn't > > >>>>>>>> mean getting rid of the chat but all design discussions should > > live > > >>> on > > >>>>>>>> the dev mailing list. Alternatively, a summary could be posted. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Mailing lists and chats are two mediums. Generally, I find that > > the > > >>>>>>>> mailing lists are better suited for archival because more > thinking > > >>>>> goes > > >>>>>>>> into the writing. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything > > in > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>>> Apache mailing list archives. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> @Matt I'm not sure which service you used to search the mailing > > >> list > > >>>>> but > > >>>>>>>> from my experience, > > >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/[email protected] works > quite > > >>>>> well. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -Max > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On 11.01.21 11:08, Matt Casters wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> Again, nobody is disagreeing in principle. However, I > personally > > >>>>> don't > > >>>>>>>>> think this is as black and white is being stated by the > mentors. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> First off, Julian made it seem like we're using some sort of > > >> locked > > >>>>>> down > > >>>>>>>>> medium for the chat. Let me state here on the record that the > > >>>>>> Mattermost > > >>>>>>>>> server is open source and that we don't have any limits on the > > >>>>>> discussion > > >>>>>>>>> archive. It's as such quite different from free Slack > > >>> functionality. > > >>>>>>>>> For all practical intents and purposes we are actually > archiving > > >>>>>>>>> everything. It's easy to get on the system without > limitations. > > >>> It's > > >>>>>>>> also > > >>>>>>>>> very easy to find something by using the search functions. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything > > in > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> Apache mailing list archives. Perhaps these need a software > > >> update > > >>>>> as > > >>>>>>>> well? > > >>>>>>>>> I just think that the gap between both is too wide. Imagine > > >> having > > >>> a > > >>>>>>>>> "discussion" on look & feel, images and so on on the dev > mailing > > >>>>>> list? I > > >>>>>>>>> can tell you right away it's just not practical no matter who > > >> wants > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>> decide what on the topic. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Furthermore, now that you have me going on this tangent... the > > >>>>> concerns > > >>>>>>>>> that are being raised by ASF surely cover major decisions and > not > > >>>>>>>>> day-to-day small trivia? Who on Earth is going to argue about > > >> minor > > >>>>>>>> details > > >>>>>>>>> of any project? We trust people to commit to the source code > but > > >> we > > >>>>>>>>> somehow need to somehow see everything that was said and only > via > > >> a > > >>>>>>>> mailing > > >>>>>>>>> list? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Anyway, we'll do our best. I've reminded everyone to subscribe > > to > > >>>>> this > > >>>>>>>>> mailing list. > > >>>>>>>>> The name of the chat server was changed to Apache Hop. > > >>>>>>>>> We're looking into creating an archive for all chat channels. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Matt > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 10:12 PM Julian Hyde < > > >>> [email protected] > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Yes, chat is excellent for discussions. That’s actually the > > >>> problem. > > >>>>>>>>>> Discussions (and therefore decisions) will naturally happen on > > >>> chat. > > >>>>>>>> It’s > > >>>>>>>>>> great for people who happen to be on chat, but people who are > > not > > >>> on > > >>>>>>>> chat > > >>>>>>>>>> will be excluded. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> So, we need to make a conscious effort to move discussions off > > of > > >>>>> chat > > >>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>> onto dev@ if they look likely to result in a decision. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> I’m not saying we should ban chat. Just be careful how chat is > > >>> used. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> By the way, a lot of Apache communities face this or similar > > >>>>> problems. > > >>>>>>>> For > > >>>>>>>>>> example, I know of one or two projects that started in China > and > > >>>>> have > > >>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>>>> strong temptation to use Chinese, which is efficient for them > > but > > >>>>>> makes > > >>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>> rest of us feel excluded. It’s difficult for those projects to > > >> grow > > >>>>>>>> beyond > > >>>>>>>>>> their original country. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> The other suggestions in my email were to create a public, > > >>> read-only > > >>>>>>>>>> archive of chat so that people can see what has been > happening, > > >> and > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>>> more > > >>>>>>>>>> strongly encourage people to join the dev list, not just > chat. I > > >>>>> think > > >>>>>>>> it > > >>>>>>>>>> is important that we do those. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Julian > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Matt Casters < > > >> [email protected] > > >>>>>>>> .INVALID> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I don't disagree with Julian but for that specific example I > > >>> indeed > > >>>>>>>>>>> mentioned this first on dev when I stated how I felt about > how > > >>>>>>>> important > > >>>>>>>>>>> these integration tests are ... to me. > > >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure it warrants a specific discussion since the devs > > >> seem > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>>> be > > >>>>>>>>>> on > > >>>>>>>>>>> the same wavelength on the subject. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Where I do disagree is that chat is excellent for discussions > > >> and > > >>>>>>>>>> throwing > > >>>>>>>>>>> ideas against the wall to see if they stick. > > >>>>>>>>>>> The way we typically seem to do it is to just ping an idea > back > > >>> and > > >>>>>>>> forth > > >>>>>>>>>>> and throw it in JIRA in some form. > > >>>>>>>>>>> These cases indeed are always visible and remembered more > > easily > > >>>>> than > > >>>>>>>> on > > >>>>>>>>>>> chats or mailing lists. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:24 PM Julian Hyde < > [email protected]> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a bit concerned about Hop's use of Chat. To be clear, > > >> Apache > > >>>>>>>>>>>> projects use chat rooms (e.g. Slack, IRC) and they are a > good > > >> way > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>>> get questions answered quickly and to build a sense of > > >> community. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> First, I am concerned about the lack of a public archive. > > >> People > > >>>>> who > > >>>>>>>>>>>> want to read the chat have to first sign up. (Hopefully, I > am > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mistaken. If so, please post a link to the archive on the > > >> site.) > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Second, let's fix the branding on Chat. Currently it is > under > > >> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>> project-hop.org domain, and the project is called 'hop'. No > > >>>>>> 'apache' > > >>>>>>>>>>>> in sight. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Third, at Apache we have a rule 'if it doesn't happen on dev > > it > > >>>>>> didn't > > >>>>>>>>>>>> happen', i.e. don't make decisions off the mailing list. The > > >>>>>>>>>>>> conversation on chat is generally pretty benign, but I saw > one > > >>>>>>>>>>>> exception: this one from Matt Casters: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to set a goal of having a substantial set of > > >>>>>> integration > > >>>>>>>>>>>> tests > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> for 1.0. The bare minimum seems to be all the popular most > > >> often > > >>>>>> used > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms and actions. I know that this far exceeds what > P5o > > >>> and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kettle had but stability is really important. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> That discussion should have been on the dev list. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Last, according to the latest incubator report [1], a lot > more > > >>>>>> people > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are signed up for chat than for the dev list (122 vs 22). I > am > > >>>>>>>>>>>> concerned that, with such a disparity in membership, Chat > will > > >>>>>> become > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the de facto place that people discuss important matters. I > > >> think > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>> solution is to increase the number of people on the dev > list, > > >> and > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>>> continue to drive significant discussions onto off of Chat > and > > >>>>> onto > > >>>>>>>>>>>> dev@. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Julian > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> [1] > > >>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/January2021 > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Neo4j Chief Solutions Architect > > >> *✉ *[email protected] > > >> ☎ +32486972937 > > >> > > > > > > -- Spicule Limited is registered in England & Wales. Company Number: 09954122. Registered office: First Floor, Telecom House, 125-135 Preston Road, Brighton, England, BN1 6AF. VAT No. 251478891. All engagements are subject to Spicule Terms and Conditions of Business. This email and its contents are intended solely for the individual to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure, distributing or copying. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Spicule Limited. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by reply email before deleting it from your system. Service of legal notice cannot be effected on Spicule Limited by email.
