You are actually our champion Max, thanks for helping out :-) I was just looking to see what the problems could possibly be to then address those. I'll remind our mentors that we've followed their advice in 100% of the cases so far, also on this topic. All in all I think things are going great.
So yes, I'm not against the idea of writing a resume if things get heated on the dev channel. That being said, devs have started conversations here lately and major re-architectures are expected to die down a bit now. The architecture of Hop is such that most of the action happens in the plugins, not in the core. So here is my multi-layered approach proposal: 1) Accept Saurabh's proposal to help out with writing a weekly summary 2) Continue to drive important discussions out of the #dev chat channel over here to the dev@ mailing list 3) Continue to think of ways to promote participation with swag but not for this purpose 4) Wrap up the work on the lurking @archivebot in the #dev channel to make all chats publically and freely available. Unless anyone has any major concerns we'll continue along these lines. Cheers, Matt On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 12:07 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> wrote: > Circling back here. I was skeptical about this idea, just because I > haven't seen such ideas working unless people get paid for it. Creating > a weekly summary is work, more work on top of the voluntary work we do > here. > > Perhaps an automatically generated weekly email to the mailing list > containing all the messages of the dev chat for that week would work > better. Could that be accomplished easily? > > I'm still thinking it would make sense to move all dev communication to > the mailing list. I'm not here to decide that though, I'm just a mentor :) > > -Max > > On 11.01.21 19:23, Saurabh Deshmukh wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > > > Thumbs up! I will be able to help you in creating weekly status emails. > > > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 5:52 PM Matt Casters <[email protected] > .invalid> > > wrote: > > > >> Alright so here's an idea: why don't we create a weekly status mail > about > >> those things discussed on the chat server that are even a little bit > >> important. > >> It allows us to review what's important while providing the opportunity > to > >> ask folks to post their topics to this mailing list. > >> In the short term it creates an archive and in the longer run we can > >> bootstrap this mailing list. > >> > >> We can ask for volunteers but I'd be happy to do it first. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 4:11 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >>> I don't think anything is stopping the community from posting to the > >>> mailing list. They just have to start doing it more. That's why we are > >>> having this discussion. > >>> > >>> Part of the incubation process is to align the project with the ASF. > >>> This comes with some limitation of freedom. If maximum freedom is > >>> desired, the ASF is not the ideal place to be, although the ASF does > >>> permit a fair amount of freedom in return for a great community, > >>> infrastructure, and legislative support. > >>> > >>> I'd be skeptical about any kind of compensation for posting to the > >>> mailing list. However, I think it is important to keep track of merit > >>> (which could be posts to the mailing list), such that we can add as > many > >>> new committers as possible. > >>> > >>> -Max > >>> > >>> On 11.01.21 13:43, Matt Casters wrote: > >>>> I'm just trying to get to the heart of the issue here Max. I don't > >>>> necessarily disagree as stated earlier. > >>>> Once we have a list of concerns and things that prevent folks from > >>> joining > >>>> and/or posting on dev we can do something about it. > >>>> As was mentioned earlier this is not something singularly affecting > Hop > >>> so > >>>> I'm sure we can learn from other projects as well. > >>>> > >>>> Before we go there, let's pile on a bit more since it seems to me that > >>> this > >>>> is treated as a major concern and I think the Hop devs see it as such. > >>>> My impression is that the ASF, and as a consequence dev mailing lists > >> as > >>>> well, are seen as a Very Big Thing and that folks are in general quite > >>>> reluctant, even afraid, to post something. > >>>> I think this especially is painful and diametrically opposed to > >> building > >>>> great software where insights come around in an iterative fashion. > >>>> > >>>> So again, I'd be very interested in hearing from our mentors how we > can > >>>> alleviate this so that we can have more lively discussions on dev. > >>>> I'm thinking along the lines of rewarding participation with swag and > >> so > >>>> on. We're not Google but we're not completely poor sods either are we > >>> :-) > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Matt > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 12:36 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> The core problem is fragmentation. I would follow Hop development > more > >>>>> closely if I wouldn't have to monitor yet another chat client. Having > >>>>> one source of truth, is what we should strive for. Again, this > doesn't > >>>>> mean getting rid of the chat but all design discussions should live > on > >>>>> the dev mailing list. Alternatively, a summary could be posted. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mailing lists and chats are two mediums. Generally, I find that the > >>>>> mailing lists are better suited for archival because more thinking > >> goes > >>>>> into the writing. > >>>>> > >>>>>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything in > >> the > >>>>> Apache mailing list archives. > >>>>> > >>>>> @Matt I'm not sure which service you used to search the mailing list > >> but > >>>>> from my experience, > >>>>> https://lists.apache.org/[email protected] works quite > >> well. > >>>>> > >>>>> -Max > >>>>> > >>>>> On 11.01.21 11:08, Matt Casters wrote: > >>>>>> Again, nobody is disagreeing in principle. However, I personally > >> don't > >>>>>> think this is as black and white is being stated by the mentors. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> First off, Julian made it seem like we're using some sort of locked > >>> down > >>>>>> medium for the chat. Let me state here on the record that the > >>> Mattermost > >>>>>> server is open source and that we don't have any limits on the > >>> discussion > >>>>>> archive. It's as such quite different from free Slack > functionality. > >>>>>> For all practical intents and purposes we are actually archiving > >>>>>> everything. It's easy to get on the system without limitations. > It's > >>>>> also > >>>>>> very easy to find something by using the search functions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything in > >> the > >>>>>> Apache mailing list archives. Perhaps these need a software update > >> as > >>>>> well? > >>>>>> I just think that the gap between both is too wide. Imagine having > a > >>>>>> "discussion" on look & feel, images and so on on the dev mailing > >>> list? I > >>>>>> can tell you right away it's just not practical no matter who wants > >> to > >>>>>> decide what on the topic. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Furthermore, now that you have me going on this tangent... the > >> concerns > >>>>>> that are being raised by ASF surely cover major decisions and not > >>>>>> day-to-day small trivia? Who on Earth is going to argue about minor > >>>>> details > >>>>>> of any project? We trust people to commit to the source code but we > >>>>>> somehow need to somehow see everything that was said and only via a > >>>>> mailing > >>>>>> list? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Anyway, we'll do our best. I've reminded everyone to subscribe to > >> this > >>>>>> mailing list. > >>>>>> The name of the chat server was changed to Apache Hop. > >>>>>> We're looking into creating an archive for all chat channels. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Matt > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 10:12 PM Julian Hyde < > [email protected] > >>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes, chat is excellent for discussions. That’s actually the > problem. > >>>>>>> Discussions (and therefore decisions) will naturally happen on > chat. > >>>>> It’s > >>>>>>> great for people who happen to be on chat, but people who are not > on > >>>>> chat > >>>>>>> will be excluded. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So, we need to make a conscious effort to move discussions off of > >> chat > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> onto dev@ if they look likely to result in a decision. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I’m not saying we should ban chat. Just be careful how chat is > used. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> By the way, a lot of Apache communities face this or similar > >> problems. > >>>>> For > >>>>>>> example, I know of one or two projects that started in China and > >> have > >>> a > >>>>>>> strong temptation to use Chinese, which is efficient for them but > >>> makes > >>>>> the > >>>>>>> rest of us feel excluded. It’s difficult for those projects to grow > >>>>> beyond > >>>>>>> their original country. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The other suggestions in my email were to create a public, > read-only > >>>>>>> archive of chat so that people can see what has been happening, and > >> to > >>>>> more > >>>>>>> strongly encourage people to join the dev list, not just chat. I > >> think > >>>>> it > >>>>>>> is important that we do those. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Julian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Matt Casters <[email protected] > >>>>> .INVALID> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I don't disagree with Julian but for that specific example I > indeed > >>>>>>>> mentioned this first on dev when I stated how I felt about how > >>>>> important > >>>>>>>> these integration tests are ... to me. > >>>>>>>> I'm not sure it warrants a specific discussion since the devs seem > >> to > >>>>> be > >>>>>>> on > >>>>>>>> the same wavelength on the subject. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Where I do disagree is that chat is excellent for discussions and > >>>>>>> throwing > >>>>>>>> ideas against the wall to see if they stick. > >>>>>>>> The way we typically seem to do it is to just ping an idea back > and > >>>>> forth > >>>>>>>> and throw it in JIRA in some form. > >>>>>>>> These cases indeed are always visible and remembered more easily > >> than > >>>>> on > >>>>>>>> chats or mailing lists. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:24 PM Julian Hyde <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I am a bit concerned about Hop's use of Chat. To be clear, Apache > >>>>>>>>> projects use chat rooms (e.g. Slack, IRC) and they are a good way > >> to > >>>>>>>>> get questions answered quickly and to build a sense of community. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> First, I am concerned about the lack of a public archive. People > >> who > >>>>>>>>> want to read the chat have to first sign up. (Hopefully, I am > >>>>>>>>> mistaken. If so, please post a link to the archive on the site.) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Second, let's fix the branding on Chat. Currently it is under the > >>>>>>>>> project-hop.org domain, and the project is called 'hop'. No > >>> 'apache' > >>>>>>>>> in sight. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Third, at Apache we have a rule 'if it doesn't happen on dev it > >>> didn't > >>>>>>>>> happen', i.e. don't make decisions off the mailing list. The > >>>>>>>>> conversation on chat is generally pretty benign, but I saw one > >>>>>>>>> exception: this one from Matt Casters: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I would like to set a goal of having a substantial set of > >>> integration > >>>>>>>>> tests > >>>>>>>>>> for 1.0. The bare minimum seems to be all the popular most often > >>> used > >>>>>>>>>> transforms and actions. I know that this far exceeds what P5o > and > >>>>>>>>>> Kettle had but stability is really important. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> That discussion should have been on the dev list. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Last, according to the latest incubator report [1], a lot more > >>> people > >>>>>>>>> are signed up for chat than for the dev list (122 vs 22). I am > >>>>>>>>> concerned that, with such a disparity in membership, Chat will > >>> become > >>>>>>>>> the de facto place that people discuss important matters. I think > >>> the > >>>>>>>>> solution is to increase the number of people on the dev list, and > >> to > >>>>>>>>> continue to drive significant discussions onto off of Chat and > >> onto > >>>>>>>>> dev@. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Julian > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> [1] > >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/January2021 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > -- Neo4j Chief Solutions Architect *✉ *[email protected] ☎ +32486972937
