Hi Matt, Thumbs up! I will be able to help you in creating weekly status emails.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 5:52 PM Matt Casters <[email protected]> wrote: > Alright so here's an idea: why don't we create a weekly status mail about > those things discussed on the chat server that are even a little bit > important. > It allows us to review what's important while providing the opportunity to > ask folks to post their topics to this mailing list. > In the short term it creates an archive and in the longer run we can > bootstrap this mailing list. > > We can ask for volunteers but I'd be happy to do it first. > > Thoughts? > > Matt > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 4:11 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I don't think anything is stopping the community from posting to the > > mailing list. They just have to start doing it more. That's why we are > > having this discussion. > > > > Part of the incubation process is to align the project with the ASF. > > This comes with some limitation of freedom. If maximum freedom is > > desired, the ASF is not the ideal place to be, although the ASF does > > permit a fair amount of freedom in return for a great community, > > infrastructure, and legislative support. > > > > I'd be skeptical about any kind of compensation for posting to the > > mailing list. However, I think it is important to keep track of merit > > (which could be posts to the mailing list), such that we can add as many > > new committers as possible. > > > > -Max > > > > On 11.01.21 13:43, Matt Casters wrote: > > > I'm just trying to get to the heart of the issue here Max. I don't > > > necessarily disagree as stated earlier. > > > Once we have a list of concerns and things that prevent folks from > > joining > > > and/or posting on dev we can do something about it. > > > As was mentioned earlier this is not something singularly affecting Hop > > so > > > I'm sure we can learn from other projects as well. > > > > > > Before we go there, let's pile on a bit more since it seems to me that > > this > > > is treated as a major concern and I think the Hop devs see it as such. > > > My impression is that the ASF, and as a consequence dev mailing lists > as > > > well, are seen as a Very Big Thing and that folks are in general quite > > > reluctant, even afraid, to post something. > > > I think this especially is painful and diametrically opposed to > building > > > great software where insights come around in an iterative fashion. > > > > > > So again, I'd be very interested in hearing from our mentors how we can > > > alleviate this so that we can have more lively discussions on dev. > > > I'm thinking along the lines of rewarding participation with swag and > so > > > on. We're not Google but we're not completely poor sods either are we > > :-) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Matt > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 12:36 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > >> The core problem is fragmentation. I would follow Hop development more > > >> closely if I wouldn't have to monitor yet another chat client. Having > > >> one source of truth, is what we should strive for. Again, this doesn't > > >> mean getting rid of the chat but all design discussions should live on > > >> the dev mailing list. Alternatively, a summary could be posted. > > >> > > >> Mailing lists and chats are two mediums. Generally, I find that the > > >> mailing lists are better suited for archival because more thinking > goes > > >> into the writing. > > >> > > >>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything in > the > > >> Apache mailing list archives. > > >> > > >> @Matt I'm not sure which service you used to search the mailing list > but > > >> from my experience, > > >> https://lists.apache.org/[email protected] works quite > well. > > >> > > >> -Max > > >> > > >> On 11.01.21 11:08, Matt Casters wrote: > > >>> Again, nobody is disagreeing in principle. However, I personally > don't > > >>> think this is as black and white is being stated by the mentors. > > >>> > > >>> First off, Julian made it seem like we're using some sort of locked > > down > > >>> medium for the chat. Let me state here on the record that the > > Mattermost > > >>> server is open source and that we don't have any limits on the > > discussion > > >>> archive. It's as such quite different from free Slack functionality. > > >>> For all practical intents and purposes we are actually archiving > > >>> everything. It's easy to get on the system without limitations. It's > > >> also > > >>> very easy to find something by using the search functions. > > >>> > > >>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything in > the > > >>> Apache mailing list archives. Perhaps these need a software update > as > > >> well? > > >>> I just think that the gap between both is too wide. Imagine having a > > >>> "discussion" on look & feel, images and so on on the dev mailing > > list? I > > >>> can tell you right away it's just not practical no matter who wants > to > > >>> decide what on the topic. > > >>> > > >>> Furthermore, now that you have me going on this tangent... the > concerns > > >>> that are being raised by ASF surely cover major decisions and not > > >>> day-to-day small trivia? Who on Earth is going to argue about minor > > >> details > > >>> of any project? We trust people to commit to the source code but we > > >>> somehow need to somehow see everything that was said and only via a > > >> mailing > > >>> list? > > >>> > > >>> Anyway, we'll do our best. I've reminded everyone to subscribe to > this > > >>> mailing list. > > >>> The name of the chat server was changed to Apache Hop. > > >>> We're looking into creating an archive for all chat channels. > > >>> > > >>> Matt > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 10:12 PM Julian Hyde <[email protected] > > > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Yes, chat is excellent for discussions. That’s actually the problem. > > >>>> Discussions (and therefore decisions) will naturally happen on chat. > > >> It’s > > >>>> great for people who happen to be on chat, but people who are not on > > >> chat > > >>>> will be excluded. > > >>>> > > >>>> So, we need to make a conscious effort to move discussions off of > chat > > >> and > > >>>> onto dev@ if they look likely to result in a decision. > > >>>> > > >>>> I’m not saying we should ban chat. Just be careful how chat is used. > > >>>> > > >>>> By the way, a lot of Apache communities face this or similar > problems. > > >> For > > >>>> example, I know of one or two projects that started in China and > have > > a > > >>>> strong temptation to use Chinese, which is efficient for them but > > makes > > >> the > > >>>> rest of us feel excluded. It’s difficult for those projects to grow > > >> beyond > > >>>> their original country. > > >>>> > > >>>> The other suggestions in my email were to create a public, read-only > > >>>> archive of chat so that people can see what has been happening, and > to > > >> more > > >>>> strongly encourage people to join the dev list, not just chat. I > think > > >> it > > >>>> is important that we do those. > > >>>> > > >>>> Julian > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Jan 6, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Matt Casters <[email protected] > > >> .INVALID> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I don't disagree with Julian but for that specific example I indeed > > >>>>> mentioned this first on dev when I stated how I felt about how > > >> important > > >>>>> these integration tests are ... to me. > > >>>>> I'm not sure it warrants a specific discussion since the devs seem > to > > >> be > > >>>> on > > >>>>> the same wavelength on the subject. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Where I do disagree is that chat is excellent for discussions and > > >>>> throwing > > >>>>> ideas against the wall to see if they stick. > > >>>>> The way we typically seem to do it is to just ping an idea back and > > >> forth > > >>>>> and throw it in JIRA in some form. > > >>>>> These cases indeed are always visible and remembered more easily > than > > >> on > > >>>>> chats or mailing lists. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:24 PM Julian Hyde <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I am a bit concerned about Hop's use of Chat. To be clear, Apache > > >>>>>> projects use chat rooms (e.g. Slack, IRC) and they are a good way > to > > >>>>>> get questions answered quickly and to build a sense of community. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> First, I am concerned about the lack of a public archive. People > who > > >>>>>> want to read the chat have to first sign up. (Hopefully, I am > > >>>>>> mistaken. If so, please post a link to the archive on the site.) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Second, let's fix the branding on Chat. Currently it is under the > > >>>>>> project-hop.org domain, and the project is called 'hop'. No > > 'apache' > > >>>>>> in sight. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Third, at Apache we have a rule 'if it doesn't happen on dev it > > didn't > > >>>>>> happen', i.e. don't make decisions off the mailing list. The > > >>>>>> conversation on chat is generally pretty benign, but I saw one > > >>>>>> exception: this one from Matt Casters: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I would like to set a goal of having a substantial set of > > integration > > >>>>>> tests > > >>>>>>> for 1.0. The bare minimum seems to be all the popular most often > > used > > >>>>>>> transforms and actions. I know that this far exceeds what P5o and > > >>>>>>> Kettle had but stability is really important. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> That discussion should have been on the dev list. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Last, according to the latest incubator report [1], a lot more > > people > > >>>>>> are signed up for chat than for the dev list (122 vs 22). I am > > >>>>>> concerned that, with such a disparity in membership, Chat will > > become > > >>>>>> the de facto place that people discuss important matters. I think > > the > > >>>>>> solution is to increase the number of people on the dev list, and > to > > >>>>>> continue to drive significant discussions onto off of Chat and > onto > > >>>>>> dev@. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Julian > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> [1] > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/January2021 > > >>>>>> > > >> > > > > > > -- saurabh
