Hi David,

thanks for fixing :)

I'm partially trying to get 2.2.1 going, that's probably why 3.0
doesn't get a good testing :)
By the way of testing, last time I looked into the kar produced
artifacts, the bin folder wasn't still included.

regards, Achim

2011/4/19 David Jencks <[email protected]>:
> I looked into this more and found that I'd made the default start value false 
> rather than true in the jaxb model.  I added some comments to the schema 
> copes and fixed this, now features appear to start automatically when 
> installed.
>
> This problem didn't have anything to do with boot features.... which 
> indicates to me that trunk is not getting any significant testing..... not a 
> good sign if we want to release it soon.
>
> thanks
> david jencks
>
> On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:32 AM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>
>> +1
>> For auto starting features by default
>>
>> Christian
>>
>>
>> Am 19.04.2011 09:05, schrieb Achim Nierbeck:
>>> hm,
>>>
>>> I only have one open question, the other "standard" features like war
>>> and webconsole, when I install those features the bundles stay in
>>> installed state, and some
>>> of those bundles are supposed to be system bundles, e.g. the web
>>> console bundle. I kind of miss the standard behaviour of installing a
>>> feature and all bundles are up and running. How do we get around that?
>>> And actually the current behavior of installing a feature and those
>>> features are right available is one of the best things about the
>>> features. I'd rather like to see it the other way round.
>>>
>>> Default behavior should be the same as before, if a feature is
>>> installed all bundles are started right away, if I don't want it that
>>> way I need to add a special flag like --nostart or something.
>>>
>>> regards, Achim
>>>
>>> 2011/4/19 David Jencks<[email protected]>:
>>>> In r1094800 I adopted these ideas.  The biggest change to review is adding 
>>>> a "forceStart" option to the FeaturesService options.  This is so we can 
>>>> assure that all bundles in boot features get started.   I thought I 
>>>> remembered a -s features:install option that would start all the bundles, 
>>>> but it doesn't seem to be there today.  If no one objects to this enum 
>>>> option I think we should add the command option.
>>>>
>>>> In addition I made a new feature called "standard" in the standard 
>>>> features which contains the stuff from framework that can easily be 
>>>> installed as a boot feature.  I also made the full kar's feature installed 
>>>> as a boot feature.
>>>>
>>>> The servers (old and new) seem to start OK for me and have the expected 
>>>> content.  Please check for problems.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> david jencks
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 18, 2011, at 12:15 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think there's a problem with boot features, and I think we don't see it 
>>>>> with the old style assemblies because the bundles are in fact all listed 
>>>>> in the startup.properties as well as as boot features.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are 3 bundles in other parts of the startup.properties that depend 
>>>>> on  Apache Karaf :: Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT):
>>>>>
>>>>> [  14] [Installed  ] [            ] [   30] Apache Karaf :: Diagnostic :: 
>>>>> Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT)
>>>>> [  16] [Installed  ] [            ] [   30] Apache Karaf :: Features :: 
>>>>> Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT)
>>>>> [  19] [Installed  ] [            ] [   30] Apache Karaf :: Admin :: 
>>>>> Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT)
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if I put the feature core bundle at start level 25 it installs the 
>>>>> boot feature asynchronously so the management bundle isn't installed by 
>>>>> the time these 3 bundles need it.
>>>>> I'm not 100% sure but I think this problem still occurs if I make the 
>>>>> feature service install the boot features synchronously.  I'm surprised 
>>>>> but can't debug through it tonight.
>>>>>
>>>>> One possible fix might be to move more of this into boot features so 
>>>>> there are no dependencies from startup.properties-started-bundles on boot 
>>>>> feature bundles.  This is a pretty big change to the structure of the 
>>>>> minimal server.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also the boot features don't appear to be started by default unless I put 
>>>>> start='true' into each bundle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 17, 2011, at 12:23 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Guillaume,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you are suggesting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. combine local-repo and system under a suitable name such as system or 
>>>>>> repository.  I'll use system for now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. have as little as possible in startup.properties.  For instance the 
>>>>>> startup.properties for minimal and full servers should be the same
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. everything else in the basic minimal and full servers should be 
>>>>>> started through bootFeatures.  We want to ensure that all the required 
>>>>>> bundles are in the (single) repo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. generally to create a custom server you'll add (or maybe also remove) 
>>>>>> more bootFeatures and make sure the bundles are installed into the repo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This seems entirely reasonable to me.  The only quibble I can think of 
>>>>>> at the moment is that if everything is in startup.properties you can 
>>>>>> look at one file and see everything that will be started in one place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure how it works right now, but with  this approach I think 
>>>>>> we'll want to make sure that when the features service starts it 
>>>>>> installs all the boot feature bundles immediately so the framework can 
>>>>>> use the start level specified in the features and the order listed in 
>>>>>> bootFeatures won't matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One situation this approach won't work for is if you need some bundles 
>>>>>> started before  the feature service itself.  For instance if you want 
>>>>>> jaxb 2.2 used everywhere you'd need to install the jaxb 2.2 system with 
>>>>>> a lower start level than the feature service.  So some custom servers 
>>>>>> may need to alter the startup.properties compared to the minimal server. 
>>>>>>  While in this case I expect the jaxb 2.2 feature I'll need will be in 
>>>>>> its own feature repo so it can be handled by just listing it as a 
>>>>>> compile scope dependency, so its bundles will get added to 
>>>>>> startup.properties, this kind of situation indicates to me that 
>>>>>> startupFeatures can still be useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll see if I run into any problems switching the new-style assemblies 
>>>>>> to this approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2011, at 12:00 PM, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that I've recently enhanced the startup mecahnism to not *always*
>>>>>>> try to install the bundles listed in the startup.properties.
>>>>>>> Previously, they were always reinstalled at startup time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, I don't really see the need for local-repo and system.   I
>>>>>>> think we should just merge them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's really no need for bootFeatures + startupFeatures.  I think we
>>>>>>> should only have one mechanism.    The original idea was that the core
>>>>>>> bundles are started with the startup.properties and everthing else
>>>>>>> installed using features, mostly through bootFeatures.   Now that we
>>>>>>> have a better maven plugin, the plugin is able to do both, but this is
>>>>>>> a bit confusing.   Note that there is some differences though:
>>>>>>> * bundles listed startup.properties have to be in the system repo as
>>>>>>> the real mvn url handlers can't be used
>>>>>>> * manually editing the statup.properties is much more tedious than
>>>>>>> changing the bootFeatures imho
>>>>>>> * you can't put bundles using wrap url handler in the startup.properties
>>>>>>> The third point is specially problematic I think.  One possible use
>>>>>>> case that isn't really addressed yet is the ability to create a
>>>>>>> configuration where some features depend on url handlers that are
>>>>>>> provisioned by other features.   Or, said another way, a feature can
>>>>>>> only be *installed* if a dependent feature is *started*.   I think
>>>>>>> moving things back in the startup.properties will make such
>>>>>>> dependencies even harder to manage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think I would have rathe gone the opposite direction and remove as
>>>>>>> much as possible from the startup.properties to use the bootfeatures
>>>>>>> instead, but it may be just me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to understand the goal, what kind of benefit do you see by
>>>>>>> listing all bundles in the startup.properties ?  I suppose we could
>>>>>>> get rid of the features service at runtime then, but apart from that,
>>>>>>> I'm not sure to see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 09:41, David Jencks<[email protected]>  
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Well, I think it may promote confusion, but there are now 3 options 
>>>>>>>> for features in features repositories of maven runtime scope:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> startupFeatures.  The bundles in these features will get installed 
>>>>>>>> into system and listed in startup.properties
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bootFeatures: The bundles in these features will get installed into 
>>>>>>>> local-repo and the feature names added to  bootFeatures in the 
>>>>>>>> features cfg file
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> installedFeatures: The bundles in these features will get installed 
>>>>>>>> into local-repo.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For instance,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              <configuration>
>>>>>>>>                  <startupFeatures>
>>>>>>>>                      <feature>ssh</feature>
>>>>>>>>                      <feature>config</feature>
>>>>>>>>                      <feature>management</feature>
>>>>>>>>                  </startupFeatures>
>>>>>>>>              </configuration>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note that except for startupFeatures the bundles are installed into 
>>>>>>>> local-repo.  I think system should only have bundles started from 
>>>>>>>> startup.properties in it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thoughts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 12:50 PM, Johan Edstrom wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For me it'd be the same logic as not "starting" everything from 
>>>>>>>>> tomcats endorsed lib and
>>>>>>>>> just deploying WAR file, perhaps a little convoluted comparison, but 
>>>>>>>>> the features additions, adding
>>>>>>>>> things and keeping "application" vs. features does make it simpler to 
>>>>>>>>> manage as your features and deployments grow.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 1:05 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the same bundles all get started when you start the server, what 
>>>>>>>>>> is the difference?  I think you've "designed" the server you want by 
>>>>>>>>>> including the bundles and indicating that you want them started at 
>>>>>>>>>> server startup.  How is it different whether the bundles are started 
>>>>>>>>>> from startup.properties or the feature service looking at boot 
>>>>>>>>>> features?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Johan Edstrom wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I really think that the startup.properties is for infrastructure, 
>>>>>>>>>>> bluperint etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> the startup features allows you do "design" your own distro.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 12:42 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi JB,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the explanation, I think I've looked at things from 
>>>>>>>>>>>> only the karaf-assembly point of view too long to see anything 
>>>>>>>>>>>> else :-)  The way karaf-assembly works now, all the bundles in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> system will be listed in startup.properties and will start 
>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are saying:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- if you include a feature in the boot feature list, you should 
>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the bundles needed are in the server already.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and, looking more closely at the add-features-to-repo mojo I see 
>>>>>>>>>>>> there's a<features>  configuration element that lets you specify 
>>>>>>>>>>>> features to install the bundles for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going to add that capability to the karaf-assembly packaging.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's another difference of style to resolve.  I've set up the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> karaf-assembly packaging so that whenever it installs a featue, it 
>>>>>>>>>>>> adds the feature's bundles to startup.properties at the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate start level.  For "boot" features this means that you 
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't need to list them in the features service configuration 
>>>>>>>>>>>> "boot features" since they will be started via the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> startup.properties.  On the other hand you can't uninstall this 
>>>>>>>>>>>> feature so easily.  Is this an important difference? Do I need to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> make a way to install a feature's bundles but not add the bundles 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to startup.properties?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> many thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 12:12 AM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi David,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure to follow you. bootFeatures property defines which 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> features are started at Karaf bootstrap time. It allows user to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> start a fresh Karaf instance with a set of Karaf features loaded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and installed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For instance, in ServiceMix, we have:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> - nmr feature as boot feature and we ship all required jar (using 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> features-add-to-repo goal) in the system OBR
>>>>>>>>>>>>> - camel-nmr, cxf-nmr, etc are part of the NMR features but not in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the boot features set. As we consider this kind of features as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> optional, we don't ship the features jar in the system OBR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> JB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/16/2011 08:32 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am wondering why we have boot features in trunk.  In 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular I think there is an inconsistency around the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> management feature which is in the minimal boot feature list and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose jars are in the minimal server assembly.  On the other 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand the ssh full boot feature doesn't have all its jars in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a boot feature doesn't already have all its jars in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server, won't this require internet access on initial startup?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If all the jars for a boot feature are already installed in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server, why call it a boot feature, why not just start it with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of the jars?  For this question I may be biased by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking at the packaging based assemblies where the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> startup.properties is constructed from the features that are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installed into the server, so it is at least as east to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configure the assembly to just include the jars as to configure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a boot feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I missing something?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>> Open Source SOA
>>>>>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Connect at CamelOne May 24-26
>>>>>>> The Open Source Integration Conference
>>>>>>> http://camelone.com/
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Christian Schneider
>> CXF and Camel Architect
>> SOPERA - The Application Integration Division of Talend
>> http://www.talend.com
>>
>
>

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