Achim sent me his framework directory privately at which point I discovered 
that git had not checked in the bin directories in framework and full.  I found 
that my local copies still had .svn files in them... does that confuse git into 
thinking the directories don't exist?  Even after I removed the .svn files git 
didn't notice them....

I added the files by hand to my svn checkout and checked them in so they should 
be available now.  When I tried git svn rebase it finally noticed the files and 
said 

error: The following untracked working tree files would be overwritten by 
checkout:
<the files it didn't notice previously or indeed after the rebase attempt>

I guess git is not entirely bug free.

Anyway maybe others will be able to build new-style server assemblies now.

thanks
david jencks

On Apr 19, 2011, at 12:36 PM, David Jencks wrote:

> Hi Achim,
> 
> I looked over the kar archiving code and didn't see anything mac or osx 
> specific so I think I'm going to need some help investigating what's going on 
> on other systems.  Maybe if you or someone could zip up the target folder of 
> the framework kar and send it to me I could try and think of a clue of what 
> is going wrong....
> 
> thanks
> david jencks
> 
> On Apr 19, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Achim Nierbeck wrote:
> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> thanks for fixing :)
>> 
>> I'm partially trying to get 2.2.1 going, that's probably why 3.0
>> doesn't get a good testing :)
>> By the way of testing, last time I looked into the kar produced
>> artifacts, the bin folder wasn't still included.
>> 
>> regards, Achim
>> 
>> 2011/4/19 David Jencks <[email protected]>:
>>> I looked into this more and found that I'd made the default start value 
>>> false rather than true in the jaxb model.  I added some comments to the 
>>> schema copes and fixed this, now features appear to start automatically 
>>> when installed.
>>> 
>>> This problem didn't have anything to do with boot features.... which 
>>> indicates to me that trunk is not getting any significant testing..... not 
>>> a good sign if we want to release it soon.
>>> 
>>> thanks
>>> david jencks
>>> 
>>> On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:32 AM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>>> 
>>>> +1
>>>> For auto starting features by default
>>>> 
>>>> Christian
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Am 19.04.2011 09:05, schrieb Achim Nierbeck:
>>>>> hm,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I only have one open question, the other "standard" features like war
>>>>> and webconsole, when I install those features the bundles stay in
>>>>> installed state, and some
>>>>> of those bundles are supposed to be system bundles, e.g. the web
>>>>> console bundle. I kind of miss the standard behaviour of installing a
>>>>> feature and all bundles are up and running. How do we get around that?
>>>>> And actually the current behavior of installing a feature and those
>>>>> features are right available is one of the best things about the
>>>>> features. I'd rather like to see it the other way round.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Default behavior should be the same as before, if a feature is
>>>>> installed all bundles are started right away, if I don't want it that
>>>>> way I need to add a special flag like --nostart or something.
>>>>> 
>>>>> regards, Achim
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2011/4/19 David Jencks<[email protected]>:
>>>>>> In r1094800 I adopted these ideas.  The biggest change to review is 
>>>>>> adding a "forceStart" option to the FeaturesService options.  This is so 
>>>>>> we can assure that all bundles in boot features get started.   I thought 
>>>>>> I remembered a -s features:install option that would start all the 
>>>>>> bundles, but it doesn't seem to be there today.  If no one objects to 
>>>>>> this enum option I think we should add the command option.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In addition I made a new feature called "standard" in the standard 
>>>>>> features which contains the stuff from framework that can easily be 
>>>>>> installed as a boot feature.  I also made the full kar's feature 
>>>>>> installed as a boot feature.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The servers (old and new) seem to start OK for me and have the expected 
>>>>>> content.  Please check for problems.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 18, 2011, at 12:15 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think there's a problem with boot features, and I think we don't see 
>>>>>>> it with the old style assemblies because the bundles are in fact all 
>>>>>>> listed in the startup.properties as well as as boot features.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There are 3 bundles in other parts of the startup.properties that 
>>>>>>> depend on  Apache Karaf :: Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT):
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [  14] [Installed  ] [            ] [   30] Apache Karaf :: Diagnostic 
>>>>>>> :: Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT)
>>>>>>> [  16] [Installed  ] [            ] [   30] Apache Karaf :: Features :: 
>>>>>>> Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT)
>>>>>>> [  19] [Installed  ] [            ] [   30] Apache Karaf :: Admin :: 
>>>>>>> Management (3.0.0.SNAPSHOT)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Even if I put the feature core bundle at start level 25 it installs the 
>>>>>>> boot feature asynchronously so the management bundle isn't installed by 
>>>>>>> the time these 3 bundles need it.
>>>>>>> I'm not 100% sure but I think this problem still occurs if I make the 
>>>>>>> feature service install the boot features synchronously.  I'm surprised 
>>>>>>> but can't debug through it tonight.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> One possible fix might be to move more of this into boot features so 
>>>>>>> there are no dependencies from startup.properties-started-bundles on 
>>>>>>> boot feature bundles.  This is a pretty big change to the structure of 
>>>>>>> the minimal server.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also the boot features don't appear to be started by default unless I 
>>>>>>> put start='true' into each bundle.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2011, at 12:23 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Guillaume,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think you are suggesting:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1. combine local-repo and system under a suitable name such as system 
>>>>>>>> or repository.  I'll use system for now.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 2. have as little as possible in startup.properties.  For instance the 
>>>>>>>> startup.properties for minimal and full servers should be the same
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 3. everything else in the basic minimal and full servers should be 
>>>>>>>> started through bootFeatures.  We want to ensure that all the required 
>>>>>>>> bundles are in the (single) repo.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 4. generally to create a custom server you'll add (or maybe also 
>>>>>>>> remove) more bootFeatures and make sure the bundles are installed into 
>>>>>>>> the repo.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This seems entirely reasonable to me.  The only quibble I can think of 
>>>>>>>> at the moment is that if everything is in startup.properties you can 
>>>>>>>> look at one file and see everything that will be started in one place.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how it works right now, but with  this approach I think 
>>>>>>>> we'll want to make sure that when the features service starts it 
>>>>>>>> installs all the boot feature bundles immediately so the framework can 
>>>>>>>> use the start level specified in the features and the order listed in 
>>>>>>>> bootFeatures won't matter.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> One situation this approach won't work for is if you need some bundles 
>>>>>>>> started before  the feature service itself.  For instance if you want 
>>>>>>>> jaxb 2.2 used everywhere you'd need to install the jaxb 2.2 system 
>>>>>>>> with a lower start level than the feature service.  So some custom 
>>>>>>>> servers may need to alter the startup.properties compared to the 
>>>>>>>> minimal server.  While in this case I expect the jaxb 2.2 feature I'll 
>>>>>>>> need will be in its own feature repo so it can be handled by just 
>>>>>>>> listing it as a compile scope dependency, so its bundles will get 
>>>>>>>> added to startup.properties, this kind of situation indicates to me 
>>>>>>>> that startupFeatures can still be useful.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'll see if I run into any problems switching the new-style assemblies 
>>>>>>>> to this approach.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2011, at 12:00 PM, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Note that I've recently enhanced the startup mecahnism to not *always*
>>>>>>>>> try to install the bundles listed in the startup.properties.
>>>>>>>>> Previously, they were always reinstalled at startup time.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> First, I don't really see the need for local-repo and system.   I
>>>>>>>>> think we should just merge them.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There's really no need for bootFeatures + startupFeatures.  I think we
>>>>>>>>> should only have one mechanism.    The original idea was that the core
>>>>>>>>> bundles are started with the startup.properties and everthing else
>>>>>>>>> installed using features, mostly through bootFeatures.   Now that we
>>>>>>>>> have a better maven plugin, the plugin is able to do both, but this is
>>>>>>>>> a bit confusing.   Note that there is some differences though:
>>>>>>>>> * bundles listed startup.properties have to be in the system repo as
>>>>>>>>> the real mvn url handlers can't be used
>>>>>>>>> * manually editing the statup.properties is much more tedious than
>>>>>>>>> changing the bootFeatures imho
>>>>>>>>> * you can't put bundles using wrap url handler in the 
>>>>>>>>> startup.properties
>>>>>>>>> The third point is specially problematic I think.  One possible use
>>>>>>>>> case that isn't really addressed yet is the ability to create a
>>>>>>>>> configuration where some features depend on url handlers that are
>>>>>>>>> provisioned by other features.   Or, said another way, a feature can
>>>>>>>>> only be *installed* if a dependent feature is *started*.   I think
>>>>>>>>> moving things back in the startup.properties will make such
>>>>>>>>> dependencies even harder to manage.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think I would have rathe gone the opposite direction and remove as
>>>>>>>>> much as possible from the startup.properties to use the bootfeatures
>>>>>>>>> instead, but it may be just me.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Just to understand the goal, what kind of benefit do you see by
>>>>>>>>> listing all bundles in the startup.properties ?  I suppose we could
>>>>>>>>> get rid of the features service at runtime then, but apart from that,
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure to see.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 09:41, David Jencks<[email protected]>  
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I think it may promote confusion, but there are now 3 options 
>>>>>>>>>> for features in features repositories of maven runtime scope:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> startupFeatures.  The bundles in these features will get installed 
>>>>>>>>>> into system and listed in startup.properties
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> bootFeatures: The bundles in these features will get installed into 
>>>>>>>>>> local-repo and the feature names added to  bootFeatures in the 
>>>>>>>>>> features cfg file
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> installedFeatures: The bundles in these features will get installed 
>>>>>>>>>> into local-repo.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> For instance,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>             <configuration>
>>>>>>>>>>                 <startupFeatures>
>>>>>>>>>>                     <feature>ssh</feature>
>>>>>>>>>>                     <feature>config</feature>
>>>>>>>>>>                     <feature>management</feature>
>>>>>>>>>>                 </startupFeatures>
>>>>>>>>>>             </configuration>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Note that except for startupFeatures the bundles are installed into 
>>>>>>>>>> local-repo.  I think system should only have bundles started from 
>>>>>>>>>> startup.properties in it.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 12:50 PM, Johan Edstrom wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> For me it'd be the same logic as not "starting" everything from 
>>>>>>>>>>> tomcats endorsed lib and
>>>>>>>>>>> just deploying WAR file, perhaps a little convoluted comparison, 
>>>>>>>>>>> but the features additions, adding
>>>>>>>>>>> things and keeping "application" vs. features does make it simpler 
>>>>>>>>>>> to manage as your features and deployments grow.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 1:05 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the same bundles all get started when you start the server, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> what is the difference?  I think you've "designed" the server you 
>>>>>>>>>>>> want by including the bundles and indicating that you want them 
>>>>>>>>>>>> started at server startup.  How is it different whether the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> bundles are started from startup.properties or the feature service 
>>>>>>>>>>>> looking at boot features?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Johan Edstrom wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really think that the startup.properties is for infrastructure, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluperint etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the startup features allows you do "design" your own distro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 12:42 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi JB,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the explanation, I think I've looked at things from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only the karaf-assembly point of view too long to see anything 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else :-)  The way karaf-assembly works now, all the bundles in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system will be listed in startup.properties and will start 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are saying:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- if you include a feature in the boot feature list, you should 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the bundles needed are in the server already.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and, looking more closely at the add-features-to-repo mojo I see 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's a<features>  configuration element that lets you specify 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> features to install the bundles for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going to add that capability to the karaf-assembly packaging.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's another difference of style to resolve.  I've set up the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> karaf-assembly packaging so that whenever it installs a featue, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it adds the feature's bundles to startup.properties at the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate start level.  For "boot" features this means that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you don't need to list them in the features service 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration "boot features" since they will be started via the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> startup.properties.  On the other hand you can't uninstall this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature so easily.  Is this an important difference? Do I need 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to make a way to install a feature's bundles but not add the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bundles to startup.properties?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2011, at 12:12 AM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi David,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure to follow you. bootFeatures property defines which 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> features are started at Karaf bootstrap time. It allows user to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start a fresh Karaf instance with a set of Karaf features 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loaded and installed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For instance, in ServiceMix, we have:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - nmr feature as boot feature and we ship all required jar 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (using features-add-to-repo goal) in the system OBR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - camel-nmr, cxf-nmr, etc are part of the NMR features but not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the boot features set. As we consider this kind of features 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as optional, we don't ship the features jar in the system OBR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/16/2011 08:32 AM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am wondering why we have boot features in trunk.  In 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular I think there is an inconsistency around the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> management feature which is in the minimal boot feature list 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and whose jars are in the minimal server assembly.  On the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other hand the ssh full boot feature doesn't have all its jars 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the full server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a boot feature doesn't already have all its jars in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server, won't this require internet access on initial startup?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If all the jars for a boot feature are already installed in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the server, why call it a boot feature, why not just start it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the rest of the jars?  For this question I may be biased 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by looking at the packaging based assemblies where the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> startup.properties is constructed from the features that are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installed into the server, so it is at least as east to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configure the assembly to just include the jars as to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configure a boot feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I missing something?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Open Source SOA
>>>>>>>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Connect at CamelOne May 24-26
>>>>>>>>> The Open Source Integration Conference
>>>>>>>>> http://camelone.com/
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Christian Schneider
>>>> CXF and Camel Architect
>>>> SOPERA - The Application Integration Division of Talend
>>>> http://www.talend.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 

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