+1 to that! On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 at 23:40, Alex Porcelli <porce...@apache.org> wrote:
> +1 for the streamlined approach > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 5:33 PM Kris Verlaenen <kris.verlae...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I believe there is sufficient consensus on the approach so we are > executing > > on this. > > > > Note that the recommendation is to focus on the module renaming for now > > (and whatever would be absolutely necessary to integrate into quarkus, > e.g. > > metadata updates), as this is considered a blocker for the release. > > While there is more work to be done (renaming other modules, renaming > > properties, etc.), let's try to prioritize getting the renaming merged > asap > > and we can follow up with more changes later. > > > > Thx, > > Kris > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:44 PM Alex Porcelli <a...@porcelli.me> wrote: > > > > > The following extensions are missing in the spreadsheet: > > > > > > org.kie:kogito-addons-quarkus-jobs > > > org.kie:kogito-addons-data-audit-quarkus > > > org.kie:kogito-addons-data-audit-jpa-quarkus > > > org.kie:kogito-addons-data-audit-springboot > > > org.kie:kogito-addons-data-audit-jpa-springboot > > > > > > The org.kie.kogito:kogito-quarkus I suggest to preserve and rename to > > > org.jbpm:jbpm-with-drools - and not remove. > > > > > > And, for now I'd prefer to preserve all extensions, so not removing > > > the following: > > > > > > org.kie:kie-addons-quarkus-events-predictions > > > org.kie:kie-addons-quarkus-explainability > > > org.kie:kie-addons-quarkus-tracing-decision > > > org.kie:kie-quarkus-predictions > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 7:31 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti > > > <ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 1:05 PM Kris Verlaenen < > > kris.verlae...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > It's up to us to define how to use Kogito. I guess the term I used > > > > > (supporting service) isn't well-defined and open for > interpretation. > > > If we > > > > > define them more like services that are developed as part of the > KIE > > > > > project and could (potentially) be independent, then job service > and > > > data > > > > > index would fall under that category, but persistence (for the > > runtime > > > > > engine) would more like eventing and other generic services under > > kie, > > > > > where it's more connecting to other external services. I updated > the > > > > > proposal to reflect this. Wdyt? > > > > > > > > > > There were a few missing modules that were added after the > > spreadsheet > > > was > > > > > created, I added them, but they are following the same reasoning. > > > > > I also incorporated Pere's suggestion on jbpm-quarkus-devui. > > > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > > > Kris > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 4:30 PM Alex Porcelli <a...@porcelli.me> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think the spreadsheet shared by Kris is missing quite some > > > information, > > > > > > I’ll double check it and get back to this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully with the updates that are missing, we can clarify > > Francisco > > > > > > concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 6:43 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < > > > > > > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that we should set a criteria, I do not mind which one. > > For > > > > > > > example, if we took the one: "across all engines" vs "workflow > > > > > > > (bpmn+sonata, but not drools)", then, at a first look, > > persistence > > > can > > > > > be > > > > > > > considered kie, but job service would be just kogito ;). @Kris > > > > > Verlaenen > > > > > > > <kverl...@redhat.com> I think we need some more concrete > > > guidelines > > > > > > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 12:37 PM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez < > > > > > > > elguard...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El mar, 6 feb 2024 a las 12:01, Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti > > > > > > > > (<ftira...@redhat.com>) escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > I agree with you. It is crystal clear what is bpmn, what is > > > rules > > > > > and > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > is serverless workflow. I just wanted to clarify what is > not > > > clear. > > > > > > And > > > > > > > > > what is not clear, in my opinion, is the meaning of > > supporting > > > > > > service. > > > > > > > > And > > > > > > > > > I think the example I mention still stands. Persistence is > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > supporting service and messaging is not, why? I hardly see > > > > > > persistence > > > > > > > > > being more important than the possibility of starting a > > process > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > event (something that cannot be done if the messaging addon > > is > > > not > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > dependency). > > > > > > > > > Therefore, as a tentative, I proposed to use the > distinction > > > > > > > > > between microservice (because even if data index is > deployed > > > > > > embedded, > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is still conceptually a microservice) vs infrastructure > > > service > > > > > as a > > > > > > > > > criteria to rename addos as Kie vs Kogito. Or we can just > > avoid > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > distinction at all and just rename as kie all addons that > are > > > not > > > > > > > > specific > > > > > > > > > to drools, jbpm or sonataflow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned in my prior message the criteria avoided such > > > > > distinction > > > > > > > > (yes, it is an arbitrary one) but criterias in the end are > > > based on > > > > > > > > some arbitrary decision making. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess the criteria is not really supporting service but if > we > > > > > > > > consider addons something across all engines (kie) or > workflow > > > > > > > > (kogito) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The important part from my point of view is to have one that > > > makes > > > > > > > > sense and the naming fits the criteria. > > > > > > > > Regarding persistence or messaging we might come up with > > > different > > > > > > > > arguments to put them in different categories or we can set a > > > degree > > > > > > > > of "importance" (whatever it means in this context) depending > > > again > > > > > on > > > > > > > > our views of the topic. > > > > > > > > In my case (I guess) I can compromise what I can consider > > > something > > > > > > > > that I could come up with different arguments that fall in > any > > of > > > > > > > > those categories and agree with the current situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 9:35 AM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez < > > > > > > > > > egonza...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Francisco, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the sake of moving things forward, probably the best > > way > > > to > > > > > > > > > > address your disagreement with Kris on this would be for > > you > > > to > > > > > > > > > > provide some feedback regarding his approach (where your > > > > > > discrepancy > > > > > > > > > > lies) > > > > > > > > > > This will lead: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. remove the focus of just a few components and move > again > > > to a > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > general criteria > > > > > > > > > > 2. A common criteria for the current modules and future > > ones. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Discuss things in a more broad scope vs discuss > element > > by > > > > > > element > > > > > > > > > > that could drag too much the conversation. > > > > > > > > > > 4. With a common criteria we can discuss things elements > > > because > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > have already a judgement of how things should be named. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current criteria proposed by Kris is this one: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Drools: for anything related to rules, > > > > > > > > > > jBPM: for everything related to business processes > (BPMN2), > > > > > > > > > > SonataFlow: for everything related to Serverless > Workflow, > > > > > > > > > > Kogito: for supporting services like persistence, data > > index > > > and > > > > > > job > > > > > > > > > > service, and > > > > > > > > > > Kie: just for anything that does not fit in other > > categories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would point out few things: > > > > > > > > > > * This criteria does not take into account how elements > are > > > being > > > > > > > > > > deployed (collocated or microservice); in fact most of > the > > > have a > > > > > > > dual > > > > > > > > > > nature like data index, audit, jobs, etc... (this is > > > independent > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > what will be our recomendations in prod environments) > > > > > > > > > > * The criteria is not taking into account how > dependencies > > > are > > > > > > > working > > > > > > > > > > together. For instance jobs or persistence are something > > > that the > > > > > > > > > > engine requires to work 100 % but we can compromise that > in > > > some > > > > > > > > > > scenarios might not be needed; like for instance STP or > > > workflows > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > don't require timers. > > > > > > > > > > * The criteria takes into account functionality offered > as > > a > > > > > > > priority. > > > > > > > > > > * The criteria is not taking into account the dependency > > with > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > tiers (like database, brokers, streams....) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest you should take the criteria and try to > > > refine it > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > your best of your abilities so we can see exactly where > the > > > > > > > > > > disagreement lies and Kris (and other people) can engage > in > > > the > > > > > > > > > > differences and how to reach a middleground. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El lun, 5 feb 2024 a las 20:15, Francisco Javier Tirado > > Sarti > > > > > > > > > > (<ftira...@redhat.com>) escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Enrique, > > > > > > > > > > > Iḿ afraid is not that clear, at least for me. > > > > > > > > > > > Which definition of supporting service are we using to > > > consider > > > > > > > > > > persistence > > > > > > > > > > > addons ( a java library essentially) a supporting > > service > > > and > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > messaging addons (another java library)? > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, and being redundant just in case, if in > > > Kris > > > > > > e-mail > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > had > > > > > > > > > > > not put persistence together with data index and jobs, > I > > > would > > > > > > > agree > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > criteria is crystal clear, because data index and job > > > services > > > > > > (as > > > > > > > > being > > > > > > > > > > > microservices) belong to a different group than > messaging > > > and > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > addons, > > > > > > > > > > > which are essentially optional java libraries that can > be > > > added > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > dependencies on the example poms. According to that > > > rationale, > > > > > it > > > > > > > > can be > > > > > > > > > > > argued that persistence addons belongs to the second > > group, > > > > > > unless > > > > > > > > Kris > > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > referring to the database server and not the > persistence > > > addon > > > > > > > > (please > > > > > > > > > > note > > > > > > > > > > > the similar relation between persistence addons with > the > > db > > > > > > server > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > messaging addon with the event broker) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:26 PM Enrique Gonzalez > Martinez > > < > > > > > > > > > > > egonza...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 to kris approach > > > > > > > > > > > > The criteria is well defined and make sense. The only > > > maybe > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion would be jobs as it needs to be there to > get > > > the > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > > > > > functional workflow engine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El lun, 5 feb 2024, 18:11, ricardo zanini fernandes < > > > > > > > > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1, Javi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 12:58 PM Francisco Javier > > Tirado > > > > > > Sarti < > > > > > > > > > > > > > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think is better to consider messaging, > > persistence, > > > > > > > > marshallers > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > infrastructure (kogito or kie) and data-index and > > > jobs as > > > > > > > > > > supporting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > services ( kogito o kie), if we want to do the > > > > > distinction > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > > > libraries > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that are added to a microservice as addon (infra) > > and > > > > > > > > microservices > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are not mandatory but heavily recommended to have > > all > > > > > > > > functionality > > > > > > > > > > > > (job > > > > > > > > > > > > > > service and data index service) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 4:54 PM Francisco Javier > > > Tirado > > > > > > Sarti > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kris, sounds good, but I have a question why > > is > > > > > > > > persistence > > > > > > > > > > > > > considered > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a supporting service and messaging is not?. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 4:44 PM Kris Verlaenen < > > > > > > > > > > > > > kris.verlae...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Here's a slightly modified proposal to take > the > > > > > feedback > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > far > > > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> account: the suggestion is to use Drools for > > > anything > > > > > > > > related to > > > > > > > > > > > > > rules, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> jBPM for everything related to business > > processes > > > > > > (BPMN2), > > > > > > > > > > > > SonataFlow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> everything related to Serverless Workflow, > > Kogito > > > for > > > > > > > > supporting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > services > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> like persistence, data index and job service, > > and > > > kie > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> that doesn't fit any or does fit all of the > > other > > > > > > > > categories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I added a counter-proposal to the document in > a > > > > > column D > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> spreadsheet: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsttRcXGtwGQO469EYFDhLxJLEA7Kl3gmioR6XhGhjY/edit#gid=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Please let us know what you think. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thx, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Kris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 6:45 PM Alex Porcelli > < > > > > > > > > a...@porcelli.me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Ricardo, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > One concern that I have with the proposed > > > renames is > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > complete > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > vanish of the Kogito brand. Although I > always > > > agreed > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > reposition the brands, I also have concerns > to > > > > > > basically > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > them - that got some decent public coverage > in > > > > > recent > > > > > > > > years - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > completely disappear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > My suggestion is to revisit the list and get > > > some > > > > > > > > components > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the Kogito brand. My inital suggestion are > > > > > > persistence, > > > > > > > > > > data-index > > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > job scheduler components to be kept under > > > Kogito. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also see some components that are planned > to > > > be > > > > > > > removed > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > PMML, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Tracing and Predictions that I don't get > why. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 2:42 PM ricardo > zanini > > > > > > fernandes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > <ricardozan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Alex, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > As discussed here's the spreadsheet: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsttRcXGtwGQO469EYFDhLxJLEA7Kl3gmioR6XhGhjY/edit#gid=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > (anyone can edit) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > It contains only the Quarkus Add-ons for > > now, > > > I'll > > > > > > add > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > remaining > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > libraries tomorrow if we all agree with > this > > > > > format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > @Jason, we decided to table this > discussion > > > for > > > > > now. > > > > > > > We > > > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rename > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Kogito SW, and other add-ons to reflect > the > > > > > > > > implementation > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> release. We > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > won't add Apache prefix anywhere at this > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 11:17 AM Jason > > Porter > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> lightguar...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > I just checked > > > > > > > > > > https://groovy.apache.org/download.html#distro > > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > does > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > look like Groovy has moved all of their > > GAV > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.apache.groovy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > point we'll need to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > On 2023/10/23 14:01:12 Jason Porter > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > I missed some of this discussion as I > > was > > > out > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > Friday. We > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > look > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > at what Groovy has done. They’re > probably > > > the > > > > > > > biggest > > > > > > > > > > project > > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > in a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > similar space (Java, Maven, number of > > > artifacts, > > > > > > > > etc.) to > > > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > moved > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > over. I suggest we follow what they have > > > done. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Jason Porter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Software Engineer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > He/Him/His > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > IBM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > From: ricardo zanini fernandes < > > > > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Date: Friday, October 20, 2023 at > 13:53 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > To: dev@kie.apache.org < > > > dev@kie.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PROPOSAL] > > > Renaming > > > > > > Kogito > > > > > > > > SW > > > > > > > > > > > > > artifacts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > KIE/SonataFlow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > As discussed offline, I'm gonna > create a > > > > > > > spreadsheet > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > renaming > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > proposition and share it in this > thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > We table the discussion about `apache` > > > > > prefixing > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GAV/namespaces > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 2:20 PM Alex > > > Porcelli > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> porce...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > You have a point in regarding the > > > change of > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > GAVs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > My suggestion is to table that > > > discussion > > > > > for > > > > > > > now, > > > > > > > > > > work on > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > inventory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > and proposed changes. Once we have > it > > > done, > > > > > we > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > start a > > > > > > > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > thread > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > GAVs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Wdyt? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 1:07 PM > > ricardo > > > > > zanini > > > > > > > > > > fernandes < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Alex, I can create and share this > > > > > > spreadsheet, > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > we can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > start > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > working on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > IMHO, we shouldn't start adding > > apache > > > > > > > prefixes > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > components > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > in others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If we ought to add it, I'd rather > > add > > > > > > > > everything at > > > > > > > > > > > > once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 1:58 PM > Alex > > > > > > Porcelli > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> a...@porcelli.me> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Ricardo, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Besides the SonataFlow proposed > > > changes, > > > > > > > Mario > > > > > > > > > > already > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > mentioned a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > change in Drools, and we'll need > > > similar > > > > > > > > > > adjustments > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> jBPM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > We > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > collectively create a > spreadsheet > > > to be > > > > > > > > shared in > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> thread > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > inventory of the extensions we > > have > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > suggested > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> change; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > look > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > this in a more comprehensive > > > approach > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > > local > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > SonataFlow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Regarding the use of the Apache > > > prefix, > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > we are > > > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > necessarily > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > required to adopt it right away, > > > it's > > > > > > > > inevitable > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we'll > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > have to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > start > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > using it at some point. Given > that > > > we're > > > > > > > > already > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discussing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > reset > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 10.x, it would help to make the > > > message > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > > > > apparent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > sharper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > incorporate the Apache prefix in > > the > > > > > > > proposed > > > > > > > > > > changes > > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we'll > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the spreadsheet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > To be more clear and precise, > the > > > Apache > > > > > > > > prefix is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > expected > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > incorporated only into the > > > components in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > spreadsheet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AND > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > nothing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > else, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > so no complete change of GAVs or > > > > > > namespaces. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 8:51 AM > > > ricardo > > > > > > > zanini > > > > > > > > > > > > > fernandes < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Hi Jason! Are we required to > > > change > > > > > > > > > > namespaces/GAV > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> include > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > `apache`? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I'd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > instead do this simple change > > now > > > > > since > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > must > > > > > > > > > > move > > > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > SonataFlow, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > and then rethink all modules > to > > > > > include > > > > > > > > > > > > > "org.apache.kie" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > prefix. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Honestly, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > if we are not required, I'd > keep > > > the > > > > > > > naming > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at > 12:54 AM > > > Jason > > > > > > > > Porter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > <jpor...@ibm.com.invalid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > We don’t have to rename > > current > > > > > code, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > > code > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > org.apache (sonataflow is > > > probably > > > > > > > fine). > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> thinking if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > we’re > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > rename packages group id > now, > > we > > > > > might > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Apache > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > it once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Jason Porter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Software Engineer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > He/Him/His > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > IBM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From: ricardo zanini > > fernandes < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Date: Thursday, October 19, > > > 2023 at > > > > > > > 11:47 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@kie.apache.org < > > > > > > > > dev@kie.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: > > > [PROPOSAL] > > > > > > > > Renaming > > > > > > > > > > Kogito > > > > > > > > > > > > > SW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > artifacts to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > KIE/SonataFlow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > We have org.drools, > org.jbpm, > > > hence > > > > > > > > > > > > org.sonataflow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Can't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > keep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ubiquity? > > > org.kie.apache.sonataflow > > > > > is > > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > > > large, > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> If > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > go for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > org.apache.sonataflow, then > > > maybe > > > > > > > renaming > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> else > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > follow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > same pattern? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at > > 2:30 PM > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > Porter < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > lightguar...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I'm +0 on this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > If we're going to rename > it > > to > > > > > > > > SonataFlow, > > > > > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > make it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > org.apache.kie.sonataflow > or > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > > > > > > > under > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Apache > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > name? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On 2023/10/19 12:42:53 > > ricardo > > > > > > zanini > > > > > > > > > > fernandes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Since we moved from > > "Kogito > > > > > > > Serverless > > > > > > > > > > > > Workflow" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > "SonataFlow" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to propose a > > naming > > > > > > change > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> artifacts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > targeting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 10.x. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Some are *only* related > to > > > SW > > > > > > which > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> implementation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > specifics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > We > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > change to SonataFlow, > for > > > > > example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Description Extension > > Target > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Runtime development > tools > > > for > > > > > > > > SonataFlow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > org.kie.kogito:kogito-quarkus-serverless-workflow-devui > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.sonataflow:sonataflow-quarkus-devui > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > SonataFlow Add-On - > > Includes > > > > > > OpenApi > > > > > > > > > > Client, > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Process > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Knative Eventing > > > capabilities > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.kie.kogito:kogito-quarkus-serverless-workflow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.sonataflow:sonataflow-quarkus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Another renaming is > > > targeting > > > > > > Kogito > > > > > > > > > > Quarkus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add-Ons > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to KIE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Quarkus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Add-Ons > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > for generic proposes > > (works > > > for > > > > > > > > > > SonataFlow, > > > > > > > > > > > > > jBPM, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Drools, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > etc). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > For > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Description Extension > > Target > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > KIE Data Index > Infinispan > > > Add-On > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > org.kie.kogito:kogito-addons-quarkus-data-index-infinispan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.kie:kie-addons-quarkus-data-index-infinispan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > KIE Data Index In-memory > > > Add-On > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > org.kie.kogito:kogito-addons-quarkus-data-index-inmemory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.kie:kie-addons-quarkus-data-index-inmemory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > There are also jBPM > > > specifics, > > > > > > > which I > > > > > > > > > > > > propose: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Description Extension > > Target > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > jBPM Add-On for e-mail > > > support > > > > > on > > > > > > > > Human > > > > > > > > > > Tasks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.kie.kogito:kogito-addons-quarkus-mail > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.jbpm:jbpm-addons-quarkus-mail > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To keep things simple > for > > > now, > > > > > we > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > refrain > > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > renaming > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > namespaces, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > GAV is important since > we > > > are > > > > > > moving > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > 10.x., > > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > start > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > fresh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > If we agree, I can keep > a > > > > > > > spreadsheet > > > > > > > > > > with all > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > renames > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > share > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > with the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, > > > e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Saludos, Enrique González Martínez :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > >
