Domink,

Seems that we already have the issue solved...

Regarding the proposal email, this initially was discussed and agreed
here [1] and the current thread [2] has been used for a detailed
execution plan (this thread should be HEADS UP and not ANNOUNCEMENT,
tho).

[1] - https://lists.apache.org/thread/smfjzco6nzccgos38fg83120yoy1whx9
[2] - https://lists.apache.org/thread/nknm6j641qk2c7cl621tsy3fy98tsc69

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 3:02 AM Dominik Hanak <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> this is the first time I see this plan in detail. Apologies, but I am
> unable to find
> any [PROPOSAL] related to this on the mailing list.
> Could you please point me in the right direction?
>
> In any case, I am not asking to revisit this move. I am for it, it is a
> good move.
> My goal is to retain the features we have for quite some time in kogito-*
> stream.
> Looks like it means extra work, so I want to know about it now, rather than
> after we do the release.
> I am not aware of all the little details in the migration plan, so that's
> why I wanted some input from you,
> and I got it.
> Thank you very much!
>
> @Tiago summarizes it perfectly, I noticed a problem, raised it so we do not
> figure it out after merge.
>
> +1 to move them to kie-tools, it looks like the only option now to me.
> If we are able to reintroduce the feature and continue the development
> there without issues I do not see this
> as a blocker.
> The build mechanism you built in kie-tools is very powerful so we should be
> able to work on the images in kie-tools;
> Imho without much problems.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dominik
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 at 21:29, ricardo zanini fernandes <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > After a second thought, we need these features from kie-tools. If that's
> > the solution to move there, let's do it and release this.
> >
> > But I'm struggling to find time to wrap up my own tasks, I'll need help,
> > won't have time atm.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 4:49 PM ricardo zanini fernandes <
> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, so remove all the dependencies from the kie-tools in the images and
> > we
> > > figure out later how to include this features post-release.
> > >
> > > -1 to add to kie-tools. The repo is complex enough now.
> > >
> > > Cheers!
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 3:02 PM Eder Ignatowicz <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Tiago, thanks for the detailed explanation.
> > >>
> > >> As the kn-plugin workflow will always depend on the dev mode image and
> > >> eventually images will depend on tools artifacts, I would vote to move
> > the
> > >> images for kie tools, remove the circular dependency, unblock the 10
> > >> release, and later we figure out if there is a better way to deal with
> > >> that.
> > >> _____________
> > >> Eder Ignatowicz
> > >> [email protected]
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 2:50 PM Tiago Bento <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Dominik and Ricardo,
> > >> >
> > >> > I understand your concern with removing features from users. Too much
> > >> > has grown around the circular dependency we had between `kogito-apps`
> > >> > and `kie-tools`. We're fixing it now, and it is a challenging task.
> > >> >
> > >> > Rather than stating the "need" of `kogito-images` depending on
> > >> > `kie-tools`, let's keep the focus on the end result. IMHO it is
> > >> > irrelevant on which repo something is hosted, as long as we can do
> > >> > atomic releases and kick-off our release train with Apache KIE 10.
> > >> > That means defining a clear topology of repos during an Apache KIE
> > >> > build, which, by definition, can't contain cycles.
> > >> >
> > >> > Now, `kogito-images` either is part of the `drools` and `kogito-*`
> > >> > streams, or it's not.
> > >> >
> > >> > This PR [1]
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images/pull/1734
> > >> > introduces a cycle, even without the changes proposed by me on the
> > >> > first email of this thread, so merging this PR would be introducing a
> > >> > blocker for the Apache KIE 10 release (and for future releases too).
> > >> >
> > >> > If we really wanted to have `kogito-images` depending on `kie-tools`,
> > >> > though, we would need to:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. Make sure `kie-tools` doesn't depend on `kogito-images`;
> > >> > 2. Create a third development stream, just for `kogito-images`,
> > >> > leaving a buffer for `kogito-images` to be updated with the latest
> > >> > `kie-tools` version during a release. Analogous to what we do with
> > >> > `kie-tools` and the `drools` and `kogito-*` stream;
> > >> > 3. Create a mechanism to do timestamped SNAPSHOT releases of
> > >> > `kie-tools`, analogous to what we have on the `drools` and `kogito-*`
> > >> > streams now.
> > >> >
> > >> > This, IMHO, introduces a lot more complexity to our already convoluted
> > >> > release process, so I wouldn't go on that route.
> > >> >
> > >> > With all that said, and to be clear regarding the topology of the
> > >> > repository, to successfully build and release Apache KIE 10, we need
> > >> > to take all 22 repositories [1] we have in Apache right now, and sort
> > >> > them in a way that we can build them one by one, only once, without
> > >> > referencing older versions of any 1st-party
> > >> > package/module/image/artifact.
> > >> >
> > >> > We can't think about our repos in the same way we used to. KIE Tools
> > >> > won't have a release published before nor after a Drools or Kogito
> > >> > Runtimes release. Everything will be released at the same time. That's
> > >> > the mindset shift we all need to get used to if we want to do atomic
> > >> > releases of Apache KIE.
> > >> >
> > >> > I hope it is clearer now why we can't have `kogito-images` depending
> > >> > on `kie-tools` if `kogito-images` continues to be part of the `drools`
> > >> > and `kogito-*` development streams.
> > >> >
> > >> > The way I see it, Dominik came to this mail thread with an important
> > >> > and valid concern, which now we need to solve together, as a
> > >> > community.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'll keep my suggestions of either moving the image from
> > >> > `kogito-images` to `kie-tools`, or removing the dependency of SWF
> > >> > Quarkus Dev UI from it. Of course, the PR [1] can't be merged, as it
> > >> > will introduce a dependency cycle, so I'm -1'ing that PR too, given
> > >> > the blocker it will introduce to the Apache KIE 10 release.
> > >> >
> > >> > Is this image being used anywhere else? Or is `kn-plugin-workflow` the
> > >> > only place using it? Why does it need to stay at `kogito-images` and
> > >> > can't go to `kie-tools`? Same questions for the image being introduced
> > >> > by [1].
> > >> >
> > >> > Let me know if I'm missing something, but I feel like our best course
> > >> > of action now would be moving the images to `kie-tools`.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards,
> > >> >
> > >> > Tiago Bento
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > [1]
> > >> >
> > >>
> > https://github.com/orgs/apache/repositories?language=&q=incubator-kie&sort=&type=all
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:59 AM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Ricardo,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Here's a better description [1] of the dependency that KIE Tools has
> > >> > > with the images. If we have kogito images moved to after KIE Tools,
> > I
> > >> > > think we'd create a new circular dependency.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > [1] -
> > >> >
> > >>
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/821#issuecomment-1896206199
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:43 AM ricardo zanini fernandes
> > >> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Alex,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I'm not aware of any dependencies in KIE Tools for images.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:44 AM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]
> > >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > Ricardo,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > IIRC, there’s a dependency in KIE Tools for serverless workflow
> > >> with
> > >> > > > > images… if this is correct, your proposal will introduce a new
> > >> > circular
> > >> > > > > dependency.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:39 AM ricardo zanini fernandes <
> > >> > > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Hi!
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > A strong -1 from my side moving the images to kie-tools. We
> > can
> > >> > release
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > images after a kie-tools release or patch the images with a
> > new
> > >> > kie-tools
> > >> > > > > > release if that comes out. It's ok to depend on it, I just
> > need
> > >> > help to
> > >> > > > > > setup the pipelines and CI.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > So, when releasing SonatFlow images, we can grab the latest
> > >> > available
> > >> > > > > > kie-tools version, pack it and ship it. If a new release comes
> > >> up
> > >> > and we
> > >> > > > > > need the fix, we can of course do a patch release.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > We just need to automate the process.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Cheers!
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:33 AM Alex Porcelli <
> > >> [email protected]>
> > >> > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Dominik,
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > The plans and course of action for removing the circular
> > >> > dependency has
> > >> > > > > > > been exhaustively discussed in the mailing list and Zulip
> > >> > channel among
> > >> > > > > > > community and key stakeholders, I don’t think we have room
> > to
> > >> > revisit
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > decision that has been already agreed.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > With that being said, I don’t think the current plans
> > removes
> > >> any
> > >> > > > > > > functionality, we are just moving things from one repository
> > >> to
> > >> > > > > another.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 2:19 AM Dominik Hanak <
> > >> > [email protected]>
> > >> > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Hi Tiago,
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > that is a problem, we are removing an important
> > >> functionality
> > >> > for our
> > >> > > > > > SWF
> > >> > > > > > > > users, imho it is a killer feature in this case.
> > >> > > > > > > > I am against it, there needs to be a solution where we can
> > >> > depend on
> > >> > > > > > > > kie-tools with kie-kogito-images.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Another thing that is currently open as a PR [2] that
> > makes
> > >> > images
> > >> > > > > > depend
> > >> > > > > > > > on kie-tools. Here we are following
> > >> > > > > > > > the approach you started in kiegroup and we were not aware
> > >> of
> > >> > any
> > >> > > > > > > changes,
> > >> > > > > > > > now with the unexpected and sudden changes it is
> > irrelevant?
> > >> > > > > > > > Do you have a proposal on how to achieve what we have in
> > [2]
> > >> > after
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > circular dependency issue is fixed according to the
> > proposal
> > >> > > > > > annoucement?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Dominik
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > [2]
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images/pull/1734
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 at 02:10, Tiago Bento <
> > >> > > > > > [email protected]>
> > >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Hi Dominik,
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > That is indeed an oversight on our part. Thanks for
> > >> pointing
> > >> > that
> > >> > > > > > out.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, given the two development streams
> > (`drools`
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > `kogito-*`, and `kie-tools`), we can't have
> > >> `kogito-images`
> > >> > > > > depending
> > >> > > > > > > > > on packages that will start being hosted on `kie-tools`,
> > >> > since
> > >> > > > > > > > > `kogito-images` is part of the `drools` and `kogito-*`
> > >> > development
> > >> > > > > > > > > stream, which is upstream from `kie-tools`' perspective.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Since all Dev UI packages are moving to `kie-tools`,
> > >> images
> > >> > on
> > >> > > > > > > > > `kogito-images` can't depend on them.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > I'm not familiar with the structure of `kogito-images`,
> > >> nor
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > purpose of this image that uses SWF's Quarkus Dev UI,
> > but
> > >> > following
> > >> > > > > > > > > the same reasoning we did for
> > `kogito-management-console`
> > >> and
> > >> > > > > > > > > `kogito-task-console`, my suggestion would be moving
> > this
> > >> > image to
> > >> > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`. Another option I can see is simply removing
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > Quarkus
> > >> > > > > > > > > Dev UI dependency on this image.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > I'd wait for other opinions, though, as I'm not the best
> > >> > person to
> > >> > > > > > > > > answer SWF-related questions.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Tiago Bento
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 9:31 AM Dominik Hanak <
> > >> > > > > [email protected]>
> > >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Hi Tiago,
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for moving this forward.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I have one thing to highlight with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I noticed [1], where the swf devui is being used in an
> > >> > image.
> > >> > > > > Imho
> > >> > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > would require adjustments to the nightly pipelines &
> > >> > release
> > >> > > > > > process.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible to add tasks to the plan that
> > >> ensure
> > >> > > > > required
> > >> > > > > > > > > > adjustments to our CI once the migration is done?
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Dominik
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images/blob/ce62b9d86c2ea0385ab85c3ef5339afe5ecdea72/modules/kogito-swf/devmode/build-config/module.yaml#L30
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 1 Mar 2024 at 05:54, Tiago Bento <
> > >> > [email protected]>
> > >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Following up on the status of this effort.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I know I'm a bit late on the email, but it paid off,
> > >> as
> > >> > we just
> > >> > > > > > had
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > our first green build [1] of KIE Tools with Java 17,
> > >> > Quarkus
> > >> > > > > > 3.2.9,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Maven 3.9.6 and Kogito 999-20240218-SNAPSHOT. We
> > >> ended up
> > >> > > > > > deciding
> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > do items 1. and 2. together after all, but we
> > couldn't
> > >> > use the
> > >> > > > > > > latest
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > timestamped SNAPSHOT due to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-25546,
> > >> which
> > >> > > > > > prevented
> > >> > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > publication of the timestamped SNAPSHOT to succeed.
> > >> > That's why
> > >> > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > picked 20240218, not 20240225.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > We will proceed with some manual checks now to
> > confirm
> > >> > that
> > >> > > > > > > > everything
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > is working properly, and I hope on the next status
> > >> > update we
> > >> > > > > will
> > >> > > > > > > > have
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > the big blocker removed and that we have already
> > made
> > >> > some
> > >> > > > > > progress
> > >> > > > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > items other than 1. and 2..
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > It's been great seeing everyone working together to
> > >> move
> > >> > this
> > >> > > > > > > forward
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > as fast as possible. Thanks a lot Eder, Thiago,
> > >> Rodrigo,
> > >> > Alex,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Fabrizio, Paulo, and Yeser!
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/actions/runs/8105498131/job/22153897965
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 5:59 AM Francisco Javier
> > >> Tirado
> > >> > Sarti
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tiago,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > It was a nice morning reading ;) Thanks for all
> > the
> > >> > time
> > >> > > > > > invested
> > >> > > > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > > such
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > detailed writing.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > @Ricardo Zanini <[email protected]> @Walter
> > >> Medvedeo
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> I guess dev ui can
> > be
> > >> > removed
> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > current
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > examples, at least from the ones I'm familiar
> > with,
> > >> > since
> > >> > > > > their
> > >> > > > > > > > > README
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > files do not really require any graphical tool.
> > But
> > >> to
> > >> > be
> > >> > > > > > honest,
> > >> > > > > > > > > since I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > have focused my work on  SWF simple showcase
> > >> examples,
> > >> > I'm
> > >> > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > 100%
> > >> > > > > > > > > sure
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > that's the same case for more elaborate ones, can
> > >> you
> > >> > please
> > >> > > > > > > check
> > >> > > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > is fine to remove dev ui? If this is not the case,
> > >> > maybe
> > >> > > > > those
> > >> > > > > > > > > examples
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > be moved to the tools repository (points 9 and 10
> > of
> > >> > Tiago's
> > >> > > > > > > email)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 2:29 AM Tiago Bento <
> > >> > > > > > > [email protected]
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: this is a long email. Feel free to
> > >> jump
> > >> > to the
> > >> > > > > > > bottom
> > >> > > > > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > the concrete task list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > This email aims to explain the issue and lay out
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > efforts
> > >> > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > in place to fix it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Before we start digging into the problem, we
> > need
> > >> to
> > >> > > > > > > understand a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > little bit of the history of the KIE community
> > and
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > Kogito
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > initiative, at least from the part I started
> > >> > contributing
> > >> > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > anyway
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > :)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Back in Business Central days, we had a single
> > >> > stream of
> > >> > > > > > > > > development.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > We had robust CI jobs that would build the
> > entire
> > >> > stack,
> > >> > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > `drools`
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > to `kie-wb-distributions`. When Kogito came
> > about,
> > >> > there
> > >> > > > > was
> > >> > > > > > a
> > >> > > > > > > > > fission
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > in our pipelines. Kogito started to release
> > >> > independently
> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > everything else, and because of the organic way
> > >> > things
> > >> > > > > > started
> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > organize themselves, the Kogito Tooling
> > initiative
> > >> > needed
> > >> > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > have
> > >> > > > > > > > > its
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > own release cycle as well.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Up until we started the migration to Apache,
> > >> Business
> > >> > > > > Central
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > continued on its `7.x` stream, Kogito was at
> > `1.x`
> > >> > stream,
> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > Kogito
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tooling (which was already called KIE Tools) was
> > >> > still on
> > >> > > > > > > `0.x`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Drools started its own release stream as well,
> > >> with
> > >> > `8.x`,
> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > OptaPlanner I believe had jumped to `9.x`
> > already.
> > >> > This
> > >> > > > > > > > > fragmentation
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > had technical implications, which we are trying
> > to
> > >> > overcome
> > >> > > > > > > right
> > >> > > > > > > > > now
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > with Apache KIE 10.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Apache KIE 10 release is aimed to be an
> > atomic
> > >> > release,
> > >> > > > > > > where
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > entire Apache KIE community follows a single
> > >> release
> > >> > > > > stream.
> > >> > > > > > > This
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > means we need to make sure our code base is in
> > >> sync,
> > >> > from
> > >> > > > > > > > `drools`
> > >> > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > This whole conversation of course doesn't come
> > >> > without a
> > >> > > > > > > > > background of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > CI pipelines, organizational perspectives of
> > what
> > >> > Apache
> > >> > > > > KIE
> > >> > > > > > > is,
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > even poly- vs. mono-repo discussions. This is
> > not
> > >> > the focus
> > >> > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > issue, and I believe with time we'll converge
> > into
> > >> > > > > something
> > >> > > > > > > > > everyone
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is comfortable with and that ultimately serves
> > our
> > >> > users
> > >> > > > > > well.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Due to the lack of unification and flexibility
> > >> while
> > >> > > > > > > > bootstrapping
> > >> > > > > > > > > new
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > efforts, KIE Tools had to come up with a way to
> > >> > depend on
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > new
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff (i.e. Kogito) without sacrificing its own
> > >> > integrity
> > >> > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > stability. KIE Tools, as many of you know,
> > evolved
> > >> > to be a
> > >> > > > > > > > polyglot
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > monorepo, hosting Java, JavaScript/TypeScript,
> > Go
> > >> and
> > >> > > > > Docker
> > >> > > > > > > > > images.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a multitude of technologies at play on
> > KIE
> > >> > Tools,
> > >> > > > > > which
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ultimately gives our users KIE Sandbox, VS Code
> > >> and
> > >> > Chrome
> > >> > > > > > > > > Extensions,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and Standalone Editors that can be used as
> > regular
> > >> > > > > libraries
> > >> > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > web
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > applications.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > The technical solution we found on `kie-tools`
> > was
> > >> > > > > depending
> > >> > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > > Kogito
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > as if it were a 3rd party dependency. We have a
> > >> > single,
> > >> > > > > fixed
> > >> > > > > > > > > version
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of it and we manually upgrade it to the latest
> > one
> > >> > > > > available
> > >> > > > > > > when
> > >> > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > need to. This has worked amazingly well,
> > allowing
> > >> us
> > >> > to own
> > >> > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > codebase and avoid random breaks coming from
> > >> SNAPSHOT
> > >> > > > > > > artifacts.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > This allowed the `drools` and `kogito-*`
> > >> > repositories to
> > >> > > > > > evolve
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > independently of `kie-tools`. This also made
> > >> > `kie-tools`
> > >> > > > > > > > > responsible
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > for adapting itself to changes coming from
> > >> `drools`
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > > > > `kogito-*`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, we didn't have many incompatibilities,
> > >> but
> > >> > right
> > >> > > > > now
> > >> > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > have
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > an important one, that we'll discuss below.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that at this point, and for this issue in
> > >> > particular,
> > >> > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > unimportant to discuss why things were done the
> > >> way
> > >> > they
> > >> > > > > > were,
> > >> > > > > > > or
> > >> > > > > > > > > what
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > we should've done instead. I'm laying out the
> > >> facts
> > >> > so that
> > >> > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > understand how we're moving forward now. Of
> > >> course,
> > >> > I would
> > >> > > > > > > > > personally
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > love to debate this on a separate thread :)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the most impactful features of KIE
> > Sandbox
> > >> is
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > DMN
> > >> > > > > > > > > Runner.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > It allows people to rapidly interact with their
> > >> > Decisions
> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > they
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > author them, and this was all made possible
> > >> because
> > >> > of the
> > >> > > > > > JIT
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Executor (hosted at `kogito-apps`). KIE Sandbox
> > >> also
> > >> > > > > started
> > >> > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > allow
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > users to deploy their Decisions to OpenShift,
> > then
> > >> > later to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kubernetes, and now recently we allow users to
> > >> deploy
> > >> > > > > > anything
> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > OpenShift and Kubernetes, with a very high level
> > >> of
> > >> > > > > > > > customization.
> > >> > > > > > > > > All
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > these features depend on `kogito-*`, Quarkus,
> > and
> > >> > all the
> > >> > > > > > > things
> > >> > > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > come with them. Including the Java version.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Logically, `kie-tools` depends on `drools` and
> > >> > `kogito-*`,
> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > `drools`
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and `kogito-*` can (and do!) exist and function
> > >> > without
> > >> > > > > > Tools,
> > >> > > > > > > > but
> > >> > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > the other way around.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > As `kie-tools` started growing, maturing, and
> > >> > releasing
> > >> > > > > some
> > >> > > > > > > > > pieces of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > technology that were useful to other domains
> > (i.e.
> > >> > > > > > Multiplying
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Architecture), it became a dependency for other
> > >> > projects.
> > >> > > > > > Users
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > started depending on our Standalone Editors, but
> > >> > also on
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Multiplying Architecture packages. One good
> > >> example
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > > Kaoto,
> > >> > > > > > > > which
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > released a VS Code extension aligned with our
> > >> > architecture.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > The capability of encapsulating web components
> > in
> > >> any
> > >> > > > > > > technology
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > behind a well defined, statically typed API was
> > >> > really
> > >> > > > > > > appealing,
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > when the Kogito initiative started to design
> > their
> > >> > Runtime
> > >> > > > > > > Tools
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (i.e., Quarkus Dev UIs, Management Console, and
> > >> Task
> > >> > > > > Inbox),
> > >> > > > > > > > using
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Multiplying Architecture was the way to go.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > That's when the circular dependency started. We
> > >> had
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-apps/ui-packages` depending on
> > >> `kie-tools`.
> > >> > Note
> > >> > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > was
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > also logical for these packages to be part of
> > the
> > >> > > > > `kogito-*`
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > repositories and release stream. Users upgrading
> > >> to
> > >> > a new
> > >> > > > > > > version
> > >> > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kogito would also need to have their Task Inbox,
> > >> > Management
> > >> > > > > > > > > Console,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and Quarkus Dev UIs aligned with the new version
> > >> of
> > >> > Kogito.
> > >> > > > > > Not
> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > mention Job Service, Data Index etc.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > For many months (or years!), this was not an
> > >> issue,
> > >> > as the
> > >> > > > > > > > > Multiplying
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Architecture packages were very stable and very
> > >> > rarely were
> > >> > > > > > > > > modified.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > The last big change we had was 3 years ago, with
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > > > introduction
> > >> > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Shared Values [1], which did not impact the
> > >> > fire-and-forget
> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Promise-based mechanisms we already had in
> > place.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Although we were aware of this circular
> > dependency
> > >> > from the
> > >> > > > > > > > > beginning,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > it was not that big of a deal for `kogito-apps`
> > to
> > >> > depend
> > >> > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > an
> > >> > > > > > > > > older,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > dephased version of `kie-tools`. We didn't have
> > >> > plans of
> > >> > > > > > > unifying
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > streams anyway, and it was the best solution for
> > >> our
> > >> > users
> > >> > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > have
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > their Runtime Tools packages released together
> > >> with
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > > Kogito
> > >> > > > > > > > > stream.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > That of course changed after the migration to
> > >> Apache.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you reached this point, thank you for your
> > >> > interest in a
> > >> > > > > > > > little
> > >> > > > > > > > > bit
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of the history of KIE, and I hope you can now
> > >> > understand
> > >> > > > > why
> > >> > > > > > > > things
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > are the way they are. Let's talk about what
> > >> changed
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > what
> > >> > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > doing to adapt to the new requirements.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hinting a little bit to what I mentioned above,
> > >> this
> > >> > > > > > discussion
> > >> > > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > very intertwined with the CI pipelines and
> > >> > > > > > versioning/releasing
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > strategies subjects, as we are essentially
> > >> > discussing code
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > organization, coupling/decoupling and
> > granularity
> > >> of
> > >> > stuff,
> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > make things easier at least for a while,
> > `drools`
> > >> and
> > >> > > > > > > `kogito-*`
> > >> > > > > > > > > will
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > continue being a separate stream from
> > `kie-tools`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `drools` and `kogito-*` will continue being able
> > >> to
> > >> > evolve
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > independently of `kie-tools`, and `kie-tools`
> > will
> > >> > continue
> > >> > > > > > > > > adapting
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > itself to whatever changes on `drools` and
> > >> > `kogito-*`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > At the same time, Apache KIE 10 (and the next
> > >> > releases
> > >> > > > > too!)
> > >> > > > > > > will
> > >> > > > > > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > atomic. And for our users, a single release
> > >> stream.
> > >> > > > > > `drools@10
> > >> > > > > > > `
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-*@10` will be used on `kie-tools@10`.
> > We
> > >> > started
> > >> > > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > > effort a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > while ago, and although we should've been more
> > >> open
> > >> > about
> > >> > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > beginning, we are also learning how to properly
> > >> > communicate
> > >> > > > > > > > inside
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache structure. Better late than never :)
> > Thanks
> > >> > for the
> > >> > > > > > tip
> > >> > > > > > > > > Tibor!
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's how we'll do it:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. A couple of weeks ago, one of our newest
> > >> > committers.
> > >> > > > > > Rodrigo
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Antunes, created automated jobs to weekly
> > publish
> > >> a
> > >> > > > > > timestamped
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > SNAPSHOT version of `drools` and `kogito-*`.
> > This
> > >> > will
> > >> > > > > allow
> > >> > > > > > us
> > >> > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > have a persistent, immutable version to point to
> > >> on
> > >> > > > > > > `kie-tools`,
> > >> > > > > > > > > even
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > without having a full release. Timestamped
> > >> > SNAPSHOTs, as
> > >> > > > > > we're
> > >> > > > > > > > > calling
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > them, are a little bit different than normal
> > Maven
> > >> > > > > SNAPSHOTs,
> > >> > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > there
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is no `updatePolicy`, so as time passes, the
> > >> > downloaded
> > >> > > > > > > artifacts
> > >> > > > > > > > > do
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not change. This allows `kie-tools` to be stable
> > >> and
> > >> > > > > > > incorporate
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > changes done to `drools` and `kogito-*` at its
> > own
> > >> > pace. We
> > >> > > > > > > also
> > >> > > > > > > > > moved
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > the publication of
> > `@kie-tools/jitexecutor-native`
> > >> > to this
> > >> > > > > > new
> > >> > > > > > > > > job, so
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > we won't have to maintain it on the `kie-tools`
> > >> side
> > >> > > > > anymore.
> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Rodrigo!
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When we define the code freeze prior to
> > >> releasing
> > >> > Apache
> > >> > > > > > > KIE,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `drools` and `kogito-*` will need to be frozen a
> > >> > little bit
> > >> > > > > > > > earlier
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > than `kie-tools`, leaving a buffer for
> > `kie-tools`
> > >> > to start
> > >> > > > > > > > > pointing
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > to the latest timestamped SNAPSHOT and adapting
> > >> > itself to
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > changes.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > My initial thoughts are around 2 weeks, but with
> > >> > constant
> > >> > > > > > > updates
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > proper alignment between the two streams, I see
> > >> this
> > >> > time
> > >> > > > > > > > reducing
> > >> > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > a couple of days for upcoming releases.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. After `kie-tools` is fully functional
> > pointing
> > >> to
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > > latest
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > timestamped SNAPSHOT of `drools` and `kogito-*`,
> > >> we
> > >> > can now
> > >> > > > > > > start
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > preparing for the actual release. We will cut
> > new
> > >> > branches
> > >> > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > next version (i.e. 10.0.0) and update all
> > >> > configuration
> > >> > > > > files
> > >> > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > have to. This will be done on `drools`,
> > >> `kogito-*`,
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Every module/package will declare the same
> > >> version,
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > will
> > >> > > > > > > > > depend on
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > the upstream modules/packages with the same
> > >> version
> > >> > as
> > >> > > > > well.
> > >> > > > > > We
> > >> > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > proceed with this staging phase as normal.
> > Running
> > >> > > > > > > > automated/manual
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > tests and eventually signing off that everything
> > >> is
> > >> > good to
> > >> > > > > > go.
> > >> > > > > > > > > (I'm
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not 100% on the timeline for the Apache release,
> > >> but
> > >> > with
> > >> > > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > > process
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > we can guarantee that we will vote on branches
> > >> that
> > >> > won't
> > >> > > > > > > change
> > >> > > > > > > > > when
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > we decide to release. It will be a matter of
> > >> pushing
> > >> > tags
> > >> > > > > > > > pointing
> > >> > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > these release branches).
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > With the release process defined, we can now
> > >> discuss
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > > exact
> > >> > > > > > > > > actions
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > we're taking to remove the circular dependency
> > we
> > >> > have
> > >> > > > > > between
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools` and `kogito-apps`. All of which will
> > >> > need to be
> > >> > > > > > > > > addressed
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > prior to starting the release process.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. (Fabrizio - IN PROGRESS) Make sure
> > `kie-tools`
> > >> is
> > >> > on
> > >> > > > > Java
> > >> > > > > > > 17,
> > >> > > > > > > > > Maven
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.9.6, and Quarkus 3.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/960
> > >> > > > > )
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     There's a complication here, since we still
> > >> have
> > >> > three
> > >> > > > > > big
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > packages (Serverless Workflow Diagram Editor,
> > >> BPMN,
> > >> > DMN,
> > >> > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > SceSim
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Editors, and DashBuilder) on `kie-tools` that
> > need
> > >> > GWT, and
> > >> > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > you
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > know, GWT together with Java upgrades usually
> > >> > require some
> > >> > > > > > > work.
> > >> > > > > > > > > We're
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > on GWT 2.10, which should already support Java
> > 17,
> > >> > but
> > >> > > > > we'll
> > >> > > > > > > know
> > >> > > > > > > > > more
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > once we try it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. (Fabrizio - NOT YET STARTED) Make sure
> > >> > `kie-tools` is
> > >> > > > > > using
> > >> > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > latest timestamped SNAPSHOT from `kogito-*`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/965
> > >> > > > > )
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     We have them built and published every
> > Sunday
> > >> > EOD, so
> > >> > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > Monday
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (Feb 25th, 2024) we'll have a brand new one to
> > >> start
> > >> > > > > working
> > >> > > > > > > > with.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. (Thiago - IN PROGRESS) Move
> > >> > `kogito-apps/ui-packages` to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`. (
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/833)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     We started a couple of weeks ago, and we
> > >> should
> > >> > be ~80%
> > >> > > > > > > done
> > >> > > > > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > by now.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. (Fabrizio - PR SENT, but blocked by 1. and
> > 2.)
> > >> > Move the
> > >> > > > > > SWF
> > >> > > > > > > > > Quarkus
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dev UI package from `kogito-apps` to
> > `kie-tools`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/pull/2167)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     This can only be done after 1. and 2. are
> > >> > merged, since
> > >> > > > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > > move
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > will require `kie-tools` to be ready to build
> > >> > packages with
> > >> > > > > > > Java
> > >> > > > > > > > > 17,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maven 3.9.6, and Quarkus 3.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. (Thiago - NOT YET STARTED) Move the BPMN
> > >> Quarkus
> > >> > Dev UI
> > >> > > > > > > > package
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from `kogito-apps` to `kie-tools`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/966
> > >> > > > > )
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     We'll follow the lead of Fabrizio's PR from
> > 4.
> > >> > That's
> > >> > > > > > > > > essentially
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > doing exactly the same thing for the BPMN
> > Quarkus
> > >> > Dev UI
> > >> > > > > > > module.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. (Rodrigo - NOT YET STARTED) Change the
> > Jenkins
> > >> > release
> > >> > > > > > jobs
> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > include publishing both Quarkus Dev UI modules
> > to
> > >> > Maven
> > >> > > > > > central
> > >> > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > part of the Apache release.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/964
> > >> > > > > )
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     Should be pretty straight-forward, as we
> > >> already
> > >> > have
> > >> > > > > > > > > experience
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > doing this for other repos.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. (Thiago - NOT YET STARTED) Change the
> > >> ownership of
> > >> > > > > > > > > `task-console`
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and `management-console` images from
> > >> `kogito-images`
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/963
> > >> > > > > )
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     KIE Tools already hosts and publishes
> > several
> > >> > images,
> > >> > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > since
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > the content of those images will now be hosted
> > at
> > >> > > > > > `kie-tools`,
> > >> > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > only host them there.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     This also means we'll get rid of the two
> > >> Quarkus
> > >> > apps
> > >> > > > > [2]
> > >> > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrap both consoles' static assets. We could be
> > >> wrong
> > >> > about
> > >> > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > purpose
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of those apps, so if anyone has more
> > information,
> > >> > please do
> > >> > > > > > > reach
> > >> > > > > > > > > out.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise, we'll skip the Quarkusification of
> > >> those
> > >> > static
> > >> > > > > > > assets
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > we'll ship images with `httpd` directly, like we
> > >> do
> > >> > for KIE
> > >> > > > > > > > > Sandbox.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. (Assignee TDB - NOT YET STARTED) Deleting
> > >> > everything
> > >> > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > was
> > >> > > > > > > > > moved
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > to `kie-tools` from `kogito-apps`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/962
> > >> > > > > )
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     That will be the point where we actually get
> > >> rid
> > >> > of the
> > >> > > > > > > > > circular
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > dependency and remove the blocker for the
> > release.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. (Assignee TDB - NOT YET STARTED) Adapt
> > >> > `kogito-examples`
> > >> > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > changes we mentioned above.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/961
> > >> > > > > )
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     Kogito Examples keeps being part of the
> > >> `drools`
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > > > > `kogito-*`
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > stream, meaning that example modules won't be
> > able
> > >> > to use
> > >> > > > > > > neither
> > >> > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > the Quarkus Dev UIs, as `kie-tools` is
> > downstream
> > >> in
> > >> > > > > relation
> > >> > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `drools` and `kogito-*` stream.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     The same would be true for Management
> > Console
> > >> > and Task
> > >> > > > > > > > Console
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > images, but for them, we can use the `daily-dev`
> > >> tag
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > > > publish
> > >> > > > > > > > > daily
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from `kie-tools@main`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. (Assignee TDB - NOT YET STARTED) Create some
> > >> > example
> > >> > > > > apps
> > >> > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > use
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > the Quarkus Dev UIs directly on the `examples`
> > >> > directory of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`. (
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/959)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >     This is to serve the same purpose of
> > packages
> > >> > that did
> > >> > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-examples`, but now hosted on
> > `kie-tools`.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Pheew! That's a lot of things to do, but it is
> > the
> > >> > result
> > >> > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > two
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > intense weeks assessing and planning how we
> > would
> > >> > address
> > >> > > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > > issue
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > in a way that the Apache KIE 10 release can be
> > >> done
> > >> > in a
> > >> > > > > way
> > >> > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > feels atomic to our users, who are ultimately
> > the
> > >> > most
> > >> > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > part
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of the community. There's an open EPIC too at
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/967.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > I appreciate it if you reached this point, and
> > >> hope
> > >> > you
> > >> > > > > feel
> > >> > > > > > > > > welcome
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > to contributing to solving this lengthy and
> > >> > historical
> > >> > > > > > problem
> > >> > > > > > > if
> > >> > > > > > > > > you
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > feel like doing so.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll personally send updates to this thread
> > every
> > >> > week, on
> > >> > > > > > > > Thursday
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > nights. Do not hesitate to contact me or any of
> > >> the
> > >> > people
> > >> > > > > > > > > involved in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > this effort if you have questions, or simply
> > want
> > >> to
> > >> > chat
> > >> > > > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot Alex, Paulo, Fabrizio, Thiago,
> > >> Rodrigo,
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > > others
> > >> > > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > somehow helped so far.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tiago Bento
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.: You might've noticed we left Trusty out of
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > picture
> > >> > > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > > > now.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thiago is conducting an investigation to
> > >> understand
> > >> > what
> > >> > > > > > would
> > >> > > > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > best course of action for it. As much as we have
> > >> > plans to
> > >> > > > > > > revive
> > >> > > > > > > > > it,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > right now our focus has to be on getting Apache
> > >> KIE
> > >> > 10 out.
> > >> > > > > > We
> > >> > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > always rely on Git to bring it back in the
> > future,
> > >> > if we
> > >> > > > > > > > ultimately
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > decide that wiping out Trusty is the best
> > strategy
> > >> > for this
> > >> > > > > > > > moment.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/pull/691
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [2]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-apps/tree/main/task-console
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-apps/tree/main/management-console
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > >> > [email protected]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > >> > [email protected]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > >> [email protected]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > >> [email protected]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> > >> > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > [email protected]
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> > >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> >

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