Hi Francisco,
thanks for clarification!

Best
Gabriele


Il giorno gio 7 mar 2024 alle ore 16:29 Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti <
[email protected]> ha scritto:

> Hi Grabielle,
> There is not ,circular dependency between images and tooling. The subject
> makes reference to the removed circular dependency between apps and
> tooling, that was resolver moving part of the stuff in apps to tooling.
> One of the consequences of that move is that images now depends both on
> apps and tooling and we are discussing how to handle the latter.
> Hope this clarifies.
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 11:59 AM Gabriele Cardosi <
> [email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > please bear with me, but what I'm getting from last messages (correct me
> if
> > I'm wrong) is that on one side there is a circular dependency between two
> > components (kie-tools and kogito-images), and on the other side the
> > proposed solution is to put them all in the same repo.
> > My doubt is that a circular dependency is a matter of code, not of repo.
> > I.e. if module A depends on module B for some code/import, and the other
> > way around, putting the two in the same repo does not solve the issue.
> > In the maven world this is clearly forbidden, because during the build of
> > the overall repo it would not be possible to know which of the two should
> > be built before.
> > Could someone clarify this detail, please ?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> > Il giorno gio 7 mar 2024 alle ore 11:38 Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti <
> > [email protected]> ha scritto:
> >
> > > What I'm trying to say is that changing the streams is probably better
> > than
> > > doing again what we did with tooling and data-index in the past (in
> > > kogito-apps repo), putting unrelated stuff into the same repo (image
> and
> > > tooling in this case)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 11:29 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti <
> > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > So, is it possible to have the following build order (regardless of
> kie
> > > or
> > > > kogito prefix)?
> > > > 1) drools 2) runtimes 3) tools 4) images
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 10:51 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti <
> > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Tiago,
> > > >> Let's rewind a bit, if we ignore the kie and kogito name controversy
> > it
> > > >> makes perfect sense that the final image that is delivered for users
> > > >> (whatever the name) includes tooling (whatever the name).
> > > >> I think we need to assume that fact and devise a solution that
> honors
> > > it.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 6:50 PM Tiago Bento <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Dominik and Ricardo,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I understand your concern with removing features from users. Too
> much
> > > >>> has grown around the circular dependency we had between
> `kogito-apps`
> > > >>> and `kie-tools`. We're fixing it now, and it is a challenging task.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Rather than stating the "need" of `kogito-images` depending on
> > > >>> `kie-tools`, let's keep the focus on the end result. IMHO it is
> > > >>> irrelevant on which repo something is hosted, as long as we can do
> > > >>> atomic releases and kick-off our release train with Apache KIE 10.
> > > >>> That means defining a clear topology of repos during an Apache KIE
> > > >>> build, which, by definition, can't contain cycles.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Now, `kogito-images` either is part of the `drools` and `kogito-*`
> > > >>> streams, or it's not.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> This PR [1]
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images/pull/1734
> > > >>> introduces a cycle, even without the changes proposed by me on the
> > > >>> first email of this thread, so merging this PR would be
> introducing a
> > > >>> blocker for the Apache KIE 10 release (and for future releases
> too).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If we really wanted to have `kogito-images` depending on
> `kie-tools`,
> > > >>> though, we would need to:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 1. Make sure `kie-tools` doesn't depend on `kogito-images`;
> > > >>> 2. Create a third development stream, just for `kogito-images`,
> > > >>> leaving a buffer for `kogito-images` to be updated with the latest
> > > >>> `kie-tools` version during a release. Analogous to what we do with
> > > >>> `kie-tools` and the `drools` and `kogito-*` stream;
> > > >>> 3. Create a mechanism to do timestamped SNAPSHOT releases of
> > > >>> `kie-tools`, analogous to what we have on the `drools` and
> `kogito-*`
> > > >>> streams now.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> This, IMHO, introduces a lot more complexity to our already
> > convoluted
> > > >>> release process, so I wouldn't go on that route.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> With all that said, and to be clear regarding the topology of the
> > > >>> repository, to successfully build and release Apache KIE 10, we
> need
> > > >>> to take all 22 repositories [1] we have in Apache right now, and
> sort
> > > >>> them in a way that we can build them one by one, only once, without
> > > >>> referencing older versions of any 1st-party
> > > >>> package/module/image/artifact.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We can't think about our repos in the same way we used to. KIE
> Tools
> > > >>> won't have a release published before nor after a Drools or Kogito
> > > >>> Runtimes release. Everything will be released at the same time.
> > That's
> > > >>> the mindset shift we all need to get used to if we want to do
> atomic
> > > >>> releases of Apache KIE.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I hope it is clearer now why we can't have `kogito-images`
> depending
> > > >>> on `kie-tools` if `kogito-images` continues to be part of the
> > `drools`
> > > >>> and `kogito-*` development streams.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The way I see it, Dominik came to this mail thread with an
> important
> > > >>> and valid concern, which now we need to solve together, as a
> > > >>> community.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'll keep my suggestions of either moving the image from
> > > >>> `kogito-images` to `kie-tools`, or removing the dependency of SWF
> > > >>> Quarkus Dev UI from it. Of course, the PR [1] can't be merged, as
> it
> > > >>> will introduce a dependency cycle, so I'm -1'ing that PR too, given
> > > >>> the blocker it will introduce to the Apache KIE 10 release.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Is this image being used anywhere else? Or is `kn-plugin-workflow`
> > the
> > > >>> only place using it? Why does it need to stay at `kogito-images`
> and
> > > >>> can't go to `kie-tools`? Same questions for the image being
> > introduced
> > > >>> by [1].
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Let me know if I'm missing something, but I feel like our best
> course
> > > >>> of action now would be moving the images to `kie-tools`.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Regards,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Tiago Bento
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> [1]
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/orgs/apache/repositories?language=&q=incubator-kie&sort=&type=all
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:59 AM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Ricardo,
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Here's a better description [1] of the dependency that KIE Tools
> > has
> > > >>> > with the images. If we have kogito images moved to after KIE
> > Tools, I
> > > >>> > think we'd create a new circular dependency.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > [1] -
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/821#issuecomment-1896206199
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:43 AM ricardo zanini fernandes
> > > >>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Alex,
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > I'm not aware of any dependencies in KIE Tools for images.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:44 AM Alex Porcelli <
> > [email protected]>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > > Ricardo,
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > IIRC, there’s a dependency in KIE Tools for serverless
> workflow
> > > >>> with
> > > >>> > > > images… if this is correct, your proposal will introduce a
> new
> > > >>> circular
> > > >>> > > > dependency.
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:39 AM ricardo zanini fernandes <
> > > >>> > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Hi!
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > A strong -1 from my side moving the images to kie-tools. We
> > can
> > > >>> release
> > > >>> > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > images after a kie-tools release or patch the images with a
> > new
> > > >>> kie-tools
> > > >>> > > > > release if that comes out. It's ok to depend on it, I just
> > need
> > > >>> help to
> > > >>> > > > > setup the pipelines and CI.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > So, when releasing SonatFlow images, we can grab the latest
> > > >>> available
> > > >>> > > > > kie-tools version, pack it and ship it. If a new release
> > comes
> > > >>> up and we
> > > >>> > > > > need the fix, we can of course do a patch release.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > We just need to automate the process.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Cheers!
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 9:33 AM Alex Porcelli <
> > > >>> [email protected]>
> > > >>> > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > Dominik,
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > The plans and course of action for removing the circular
> > > >>> dependency has
> > > >>> > > > > > been exhaustively discussed in the mailing list and Zulip
> > > >>> channel among
> > > >>> > > > > > community and key stakeholders, I don’t think we have
> room
> > to
> > > >>> revisit
> > > >>> > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > decision that has been already agreed.
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > With that being said, I don’t think the current plans
> > removes
> > > >>> any
> > > >>> > > > > > functionality, we are just moving things from one
> > repository
> > > to
> > > >>> > > > another.
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 2:19 AM Dominik Hanak <
> > > >>> [email protected]>
> > > >>> > > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > Hi Tiago,
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > that is a problem, we are removing an important
> > > >>> functionality for our
> > > >>> > > > > SWF
> > > >>> > > > > > > users, imho it is a killer feature in this case.
> > > >>> > > > > > > I am against it, there needs to be a solution where we
> > can
> > > >>> depend on
> > > >>> > > > > > > kie-tools with kie-kogito-images.
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > Another thing that is currently open as a PR [2] that
> > makes
> > > >>> images
> > > >>> > > > > depend
> > > >>> > > > > > > on kie-tools. Here we are following
> > > >>> > > > > > > the approach you started in kiegroup and we were not
> > aware
> > > >>> of any
> > > >>> > > > > > changes,
> > > >>> > > > > > > now with the unexpected and sudden changes it is
> > > irrelevant?
> > > >>> > > > > > > Do you have a proposal on how to achieve what we have
> in
> > > [2]
> > > >>> after
> > > >>> > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > circular dependency issue is fixed according to the
> > > proposal
> > > >>> > > > > annoucement?
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > Dominik
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > [2]
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images/pull/1734
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 at 02:10, Tiago Bento <
> > > >>> > > > > [email protected]>
> > > >>> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Hi Dominik,
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > That is indeed an oversight on our part. Thanks for
> > > >>> pointing that
> > > >>> > > > > out.
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Unfortunately, given the two development streams
> > > (`drools`
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `kogito-*`, and `kie-tools`), we can't have
> > > `kogito-images`
> > > >>> > > > depending
> > > >>> > > > > > > > on packages that will start being hosted on
> > `kie-tools`,
> > > >>> since
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `kogito-images` is part of the `drools` and
> `kogito-*`
> > > >>> development
> > > >>> > > > > > > > stream, which is upstream from `kie-tools`'
> > perspective.
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Since all Dev UI packages are moving to `kie-tools`,
> > > >>> images on
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `kogito-images` can't depend on them.
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > I'm not familiar with the structure of
> `kogito-images`,
> > > >>> nor the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > purpose of this image that uses SWF's Quarkus Dev UI,
> > but
> > > >>> following
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the same reasoning we did for
> > `kogito-management-console`
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `kogito-task-console`, my suggestion would be moving
> > this
> > > >>> image to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `kie-tools`. Another option I can see is simply
> > removing
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > > > Quarkus
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Dev UI dependency on this image.
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > I'd wait for other opinions, though, as I'm not the
> > best
> > > >>> person to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > answer SWF-related questions.
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Tiago Bento
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 9:31 AM Dominik Hanak <
> > > >>> > > > [email protected]>
> > > >>> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > Hi Tiago,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > Thanks for moving this forward.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > I have one thing to highlight with
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > I noticed [1], where the swf devui is being used in
> > an
> > > >>> image.
> > > >>> > > > Imho
> > > >>> > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > would require adjustments to the nightly pipelines
> &
> > > >>> release
> > > >>> > > > > process.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > Would it be possible to add tasks to the plan that
> > > ensure
> > > >>> > > > required
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > adjustments to our CI once the migration is done?
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > Dominik
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > [1]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-images/blob/ce62b9d86c2ea0385ab85c3ef5339afe5ecdea72/modules/kogito-swf/devmode/build-config/module.yaml#L30
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 1 Mar 2024 at 05:54, Tiago Bento <
> > > >>> [email protected]>
> > > >>> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > Following up on the status of this effort.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > I know I'm a bit late on the email, but it paid
> > off,
> > > >>> as we just
> > > >>> > > > > had
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > our first green build [1] of KIE Tools with Java
> > 17,
> > > >>> Quarkus
> > > >>> > > > > 3.2.9,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > Maven 3.9.6 and Kogito 999-20240218-SNAPSHOT. We
> > > ended
> > > >>> up
> > > >>> > > > > deciding
> > > >>> > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > do items 1. and 2. together after all, but we
> > > couldn't
> > > >>> use the
> > > >>> > > > > > latest
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > timestamped SNAPSHOT due to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-25546,
> > > >>> which
> > > >>> > > > > prevented
> > > >>> > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > publication of the timestamped SNAPSHOT to
> succeed.
> > > >>> That's why
> > > >>> > > > we
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > picked 20240218, not 20240225.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > We will proceed with some manual checks now to
> > > confirm
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > > > > > > everything
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > is working properly, and I hope on the next
> status
> > > >>> update we
> > > >>> > > > will
> > > >>> > > > > > > have
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > the big blocker removed and that we have already
> > made
> > > >>> some
> > > >>> > > > > progress
> > > >>> > > > > > > on
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > items other than 1. and 2..
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > It's been great seeing everyone working together
> to
> > > >>> move this
> > > >>> > > > > > forward
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > as fast as possible. Thanks a lot Eder, Thiago,
> > > >>> Rodrigo, Alex,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > Fabrizio, Paulo, and Yeser!
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/actions/runs/8105498131/job/22153897965
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 5:59 AM Francisco Javier
> > > >>> Tirado Sarti
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tiago,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > It was a nice morning reading ;) Thanks for all
> > the
> > > >>> time
> > > >>> > > > > invested
> > > >>> > > > > > > on
> > > >>> > > > > > > > such
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > detailed writing.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > @Ricardo Zanini <[email protected]> @Walter
> > > Medvedeo
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> I guess dev ui
> can
> > be
> > > >>> removed
> > > >>> > > > > from
> > > >>> > > > > > > > current
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > examples, at least from the ones I'm familiar
> > with,
> > > >>> since
> > > >>> > > > their
> > > >>> > > > > > > > README
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > files do not really require any graphical tool.
> > But
> > > >>> to be
> > > >>> > > > > honest,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > since I
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > have focused my work on  SWF simple showcase
> > > >>> examples, I'm
> > > >>> > > > not
> > > >>> > > > > > 100%
> > > >>> > > > > > > > sure
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > that's the same case for more elaborate ones,
> can
> > > >>> you please
> > > >>> > > > > > check
> > > >>> > > > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > is fine to remove dev ui? If this is not the
> > case,
> > > >>> maybe
> > > >>> > > > those
> > > >>> > > > > > > > examples
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > can
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > be moved to the tools repository (points 9 and
> 10
> > > of
> > > >>> Tiago's
> > > >>> > > > > > email)
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 2:29 AM Tiago Bento <
> > > >>> > > > > > [email protected]
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: this is a long email. Feel free
> to
> > > >>> jump to the
> > > >>> > > > > > bottom
> > > >>> > > > > > > > for
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > the concrete task list.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > This email aims to explain the issue and lay
> > out
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > > > efforts
> > > >>> > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > are
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > in place to fix it.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Before we start digging into the problem, we
> > need
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> > > > > > understand a
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > little bit of the history of the KIE
> community
> > > and
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > > > Kogito
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > initiative, at least from the part I started
> > > >>> contributing
> > > >>> > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > it
> > > >>> > > > > > > > anyway
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > :)
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Back in Business Central days, we had a
> single
> > > >>> stream of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > development.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > We had robust CI jobs that would build the
> > entire
> > > >>> stack,
> > > >>> > > > from
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `drools`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > to `kie-wb-distributions`. When Kogito came
> > > about,
> > > >>> there
> > > >>> > > > was
> > > >>> > > > > a
> > > >>> > > > > > > > fission
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > in our pipelines. Kogito started to release
> > > >>> independently
> > > >>> > > > > from
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > everything else, and because of the organic
> way
> > > >>> things
> > > >>> > > > > started
> > > >>> > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > organize themselves, the Kogito Tooling
> > > initiative
> > > >>> needed
> > > >>> > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > have
> > > >>> > > > > > > > its
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > own release cycle as well.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Up until we started the migration to Apache,
> > > >>> Business
> > > >>> > > > Central
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > continued on its `7.x` stream, Kogito was at
> > > `1.x`
> > > >>> stream,
> > > >>> > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Kogito
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Tooling (which was already called KIE Tools)
> > was
> > > >>> still on
> > > >>> > > > > > `0.x`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Drools started its own release stream as
> well,
> > > >>> with `8.x`,
> > > >>> > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > OptaPlanner I believe had jumped to `9.x`
> > > already.
> > > >>> This
> > > >>> > > > > > > > fragmentation
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > had technical implications, which we are
> trying
> > > to
> > > >>> overcome
> > > >>> > > > > > right
> > > >>> > > > > > > > now
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > with Apache KIE 10.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > The Apache KIE 10 release is aimed to be an
> > > atomic
> > > >>> release,
> > > >>> > > > > > where
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > entire Apache KIE community follows a single
> > > >>> release
> > > >>> > > > stream.
> > > >>> > > > > > This
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > means we need to make sure our code base is
> in
> > > >>> sync, from
> > > >>> > > > > > > `drools`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > This whole conversation of course doesn't
> come
> > > >>> without a
> > > >>> > > > > > > > background of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > CI pipelines, organizational perspectives of
> > what
> > > >>> Apache
> > > >>> > > > KIE
> > > >>> > > > > > is,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > even poly- vs. mono-repo discussions. This is
> > not
> > > >>> the focus
> > > >>> > > > > of
> > > >>> > > > > > > this
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > issue, and I believe with time we'll converge
> > > into
> > > >>> > > > something
> > > >>> > > > > > > > everyone
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > is comfortable with and that ultimately
> serves
> > > our
> > > >>> users
> > > >>> > > > > well.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Due to the lack of unification and
> flexibility
> > > >>> while
> > > >>> > > > > > > bootstrapping
> > > >>> > > > > > > > new
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > efforts, KIE Tools had to come up with a way
> to
> > > >>> depend on
> > > >>> > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > new
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > stuff (i.e. Kogito) without sacrificing its
> own
> > > >>> integrity
> > > >>> > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > stability. KIE Tools, as many of you know,
> > > evolved
> > > >>> to be a
> > > >>> > > > > > > polyglot
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > monorepo, hosting Java,
> JavaScript/TypeScript,
> > Go
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > > > Docker
> > > >>> > > > > > > > images.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > There's a multitude of technologies at play
> on
> > > KIE
> > > >>> Tools,
> > > >>> > > > > which
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ultimately gives our users KIE Sandbox, VS
> Code
> > > >>> and Chrome
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Extensions,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > and Standalone Editors that can be used as
> > > regular
> > > >>> > > > libraries
> > > >>> > > > > on
> > > >>> > > > > > > web
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > applications.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > The technical solution we found on
> `kie-tools`
> > > was
> > > >>> > > > depending
> > > >>> > > > > on
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Kogito
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > as if it were a 3rd party dependency. We
> have a
> > > >>> single,
> > > >>> > > > fixed
> > > >>> > > > > > > > version
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > of it and we manually upgrade it to the
> latest
> > > one
> > > >>> > > > available
> > > >>> > > > > > when
> > > >>> > > > > > > > we
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > need to. This has worked amazingly well,
> > allowing
> > > >>> us to own
> > > >>> > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > codebase and avoid random breaks coming from
> > > >>> SNAPSHOT
> > > >>> > > > > > artifacts.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > This allowed the `drools` and `kogito-*`
> > > >>> repositories to
> > > >>> > > > > evolve
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > independently of `kie-tools`. This also made
> > > >>> `kie-tools`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > responsible
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > for adapting itself to changes coming from
> > > >>> `drools` and
> > > >>> > > > > > > `kogito-*`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, we didn't have many
> incompatibilities,
> > > >>> but right
> > > >>> > > > now
> > > >>> > > > > > we
> > > >>> > > > > > > > have
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > an important one, that we'll discuss below.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Note that at this point, and for this issue
> in
> > > >>> particular,
> > > >>> > > > it
> > > >>> > > > > > is
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > unimportant to discuss why things were done
> the
> > > >>> way they
> > > >>> > > > > were,
> > > >>> > > > > > or
> > > >>> > > > > > > > what
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > we should've done instead. I'm laying out the
> > > >>> facts so that
> > > >>> > > > > we
> > > >>> > > > > > > can
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > understand how we're moving forward now. Of
> > > >>> course, I would
> > > >>> > > > > > > > personally
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > love to debate this on a separate thread :)
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > One of the most impactful features of KIE
> > Sandbox
> > > >>> is the
> > > >>> > > > DMN
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Runner.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > It allows people to rapidly interact with
> their
> > > >>> Decisions
> > > >>> > > > as
> > > >>> > > > > > they
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > author them, and this was all made possible
> > > >>> because of the
> > > >>> > > > > JIT
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Executor (hosted at `kogito-apps`). KIE
> Sandbox
> > > >>> also
> > > >>> > > > started
> > > >>> > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > allow
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > users to deploy their Decisions to OpenShift,
> > > then
> > > >>> later to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Kubernetes, and now recently we allow users
> to
> > > >>> deploy
> > > >>> > > > > anything
> > > >>> > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > OpenShift and Kubernetes, with a very high
> > level
> > > of
> > > >>> > > > > > > customization.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > All
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > these features depend on `kogito-*`, Quarkus,
> > and
> > > >>> all the
> > > >>> > > > > > things
> > > >>> > > > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > come with them. Including the Java version.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Logically, `kie-tools` depends on `drools`
> and
> > > >>> `kogito-*`,
> > > >>> > > > as
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `drools`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > and `kogito-*` can (and do!) exist and
> function
> > > >>> without
> > > >>> > > > > Tools,
> > > >>> > > > > > > but
> > > >>> > > > > > > > not
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > the other way around.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > As `kie-tools` started growing, maturing, and
> > > >>> releasing
> > > >>> > > > some
> > > >>> > > > > > > > pieces of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > technology that were useful to other domains
> > > (i.e.
> > > >>> > > > > Multiplying
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Architecture), it became a dependency for
> other
> > > >>> projects.
> > > >>> > > > > Users
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > started depending on our Standalone Editors,
> > but
> > > >>> also on
> > > >>> > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Multiplying Architecture packages. One good
> > > >>> example is
> > > >>> > > > Kaoto,
> > > >>> > > > > > > which
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > released a VS Code extension aligned with our
> > > >>> architecture.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > The capability of encapsulating web
> components
> > in
> > > >>> any
> > > >>> > > > > > technology
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > behind a well defined, statically typed API
> was
> > > >>> really
> > > >>> > > > > > appealing,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > when the Kogito initiative started to design
> > > their
> > > >>> Runtime
> > > >>> > > > > > Tools
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (i.e., Quarkus Dev UIs, Management Console,
> and
> > > >>> Task
> > > >>> > > > Inbox),
> > > >>> > > > > > > using
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Multiplying Architecture was the way to go.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > That's when the circular dependency started.
> We
> > > had
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-apps/ui-packages` depending on
> > > >>> `kie-tools`. Note
> > > >>> > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > it
> > > >>> > > > > > > > was
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > also logical for these packages to be part of
> > the
> > > >>> > > > `kogito-*`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > repositories and release stream. Users
> > upgrading
> > > >>> to a new
> > > >>> > > > > > version
> > > >>> > > > > > > > of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Kogito would also need to have their Task
> > Inbox,
> > > >>> Management
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Console,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > and Quarkus Dev UIs aligned with the new
> > version
> > > >>> of Kogito.
> > > >>> > > > > Not
> > > >>> > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > mention Job Service, Data Index etc.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > For many months (or years!), this was not an
> > > >>> issue, as the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Multiplying
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Architecture packages were very stable and
> very
> > > >>> rarely were
> > > >>> > > > > > > > modified.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > The last big change we had was 3 years ago,
> > with
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > > > > > introduction
> > > >>> > > > > > > > of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Shared Values [1], which did not impact the
> > > >>> fire-and-forget
> > > >>> > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Promise-based mechanisms we already had in
> > place.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Although we were aware of this circular
> > > dependency
> > > >>> from the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > beginning,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > it was not that big of a deal for
> `kogito-apps`
> > > to
> > > >>> depend
> > > >>> > > > on
> > > >>> > > > > an
> > > >>> > > > > > > > older,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > dephased version of `kie-tools`. We didn't
> have
> > > >>> plans of
> > > >>> > > > > > unifying
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > streams anyway, and it was the best solution
> > for
> > > >>> our users
> > > >>> > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > have
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > their Runtime Tools packages released
> together
> > > >>> with the
> > > >>> > > > > Kogito
> > > >>> > > > > > > > stream.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > That of course changed after the migration to
> > > >>> Apache.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > If you reached this point, thank you for your
> > > >>> interest in a
> > > >>> > > > > > > little
> > > >>> > > > > > > > bit
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > of the history of KIE, and I hope you can now
> > > >>> understand
> > > >>> > > > why
> > > >>> > > > > > > things
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > are the way they are. Let's talk about what
> > > >>> changed and
> > > >>> > > > what
> > > >>> > > > > we
> > > >>> > > > > > > are
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > doing to adapt to the new requirements.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Hinting a little bit to what I mentioned
> above,
> > > >>> this
> > > >>> > > > > discussion
> > > >>> > > > > > > is
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > very intertwined with the CI pipelines and
> > > >>> > > > > versioning/releasing
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > strategies subjects, as we are essentially
> > > >>> discussing code
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > organization, coupling/decoupling and
> > granularity
> > > >>> of stuff,
> > > >>> > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > make things easier at least for a while,
> > `drools`
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > > > > > `kogito-*`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > will
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > continue being a separate stream from
> > > `kie-tools`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `drools` and `kogito-*` will continue being
> > able
> > > >>> to evolve
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > independently of `kie-tools`, and `kie-tools`
> > > will
> > > >>> continue
> > > >>> > > > > > > > adapting
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > itself to whatever changes on `drools` and
> > > >>> `kogito-*`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > At the same time, Apache KIE 10 (and the next
> > > >>> releases
> > > >>> > > > too!)
> > > >>> > > > > > will
> > > >>> > > > > > > > be
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > atomic. And for our users, a single release
> > > stream.
> > > >>> > > > > `drools@10
> > > >>> > > > > > `
> > > >>> > > > > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-*@10` will be used on `kie-tools@10
> `.
> > We
> > > >>> started
> > > >>> > > > > this
> > > >>> > > > > > > > effort a
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > while ago, and although we should've been
> more
> > > >>> open about
> > > >>> > > > it
> > > >>> > > > > > from
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > beginning, we are also learning how to
> properly
> > > >>> communicate
> > > >>> > > > > > > inside
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Apache structure. Better late than never :)
> > > Thanks
> > > >>> for the
> > > >>> > > > > tip
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Tibor!
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Here's how we'll do it:
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. A couple of weeks ago, one of our newest
> > > >>> committers.
> > > >>> > > > > Rodrigo
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Antunes, created automated jobs to weekly
> > > publish a
> > > >>> > > > > timestamped
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > SNAPSHOT version of `drools` and `kogito-*`.
> > This
> > > >>> will
> > > >>> > > > allow
> > > >>> > > > > us
> > > >>> > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > have a persistent, immutable version to point
> > to
> > > on
> > > >>> > > > > > `kie-tools`,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > even
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > without having a full release. Timestamped
> > > >>> SNAPSHOTs, as
> > > >>> > > > > we're
> > > >>> > > > > > > > calling
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > them, are a little bit different than normal
> > > Maven
> > > >>> > > > SNAPSHOTs,
> > > >>> > > > > > as
> > > >>> > > > > > > > there
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > is no `updatePolicy`, so as time passes, the
> > > >>> downloaded
> > > >>> > > > > > artifacts
> > > >>> > > > > > > > do
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > not change. This allows `kie-tools` to be
> > stable
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > > > > > incorporate
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > changes done to `drools` and `kogito-*` at
> its
> > > own
> > > >>> pace. We
> > > >>> > > > > > also
> > > >>> > > > > > > > moved
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > the publication of
> > > `@kie-tools/jitexecutor-native`
> > > >>> to this
> > > >>> > > > > new
> > > >>> > > > > > > > job, so
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > we won't have to maintain it on the
> `kie-tools`
> > > >>> side
> > > >>> > > > anymore.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Rodrigo!
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When we define the code freeze prior to
> > > >>> releasing Apache
> > > >>> > > > > > KIE,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `drools` and `kogito-*` will need to be
> frozen
> > a
> > > >>> little bit
> > > >>> > > > > > > earlier
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > than `kie-tools`, leaving a buffer for
> > > `kie-tools`
> > > >>> to start
> > > >>> > > > > > > > pointing
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > to the latest timestamped SNAPSHOT and
> adapting
> > > >>> itself to
> > > >>> > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > changes.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > My initial thoughts are around 2 weeks, but
> > with
> > > >>> constant
> > > >>> > > > > > updates
> > > >>> > > > > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > proper alignment between the two streams, I
> see
> > > >>> this time
> > > >>> > > > > > > reducing
> > > >>> > > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > a couple of days for upcoming releases.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. After `kie-tools` is fully functional
> > pointing
> > > >>> to the
> > > >>> > > > > latest
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > timestamped SNAPSHOT of `drools` and
> > `kogito-*`,
> > > >>> we can now
> > > >>> > > > > > start
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > preparing for the actual release. We will cut
> > new
> > > >>> branches
> > > >>> > > > > for
> > > >>> > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > next version (i.e. 10.0.0) and update all
> > > >>> configuration
> > > >>> > > > files
> > > >>> > > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > we
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > have to. This will be done on `drools`,
> > > >>> `kogito-*`, and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Every module/package will declare the same
> > > >>> version, and
> > > >>> > > > will
> > > >>> > > > > > > > depend on
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > the upstream modules/packages with the same
> > > >>> version as
> > > >>> > > > well.
> > > >>> > > > > We
> > > >>> > > > > > > can
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > proceed with this staging phase as normal.
> > > Running
> > > >>> > > > > > > automated/manual
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > tests and eventually signing off that
> > everything
> > > >>> is good to
> > > >>> > > > > go.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > (I'm
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > not 100% on the timeline for the Apache
> > release,
> > > >>> but with
> > > >>> > > > > this
> > > >>> > > > > > > > process
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > we can guarantee that we will vote on
> branches
> > > >>> that won't
> > > >>> > > > > > change
> > > >>> > > > > > > > when
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > we decide to release. It will be a matter of
> > > >>> pushing tags
> > > >>> > > > > > > pointing
> > > >>> > > > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > these release branches).
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > With the release process defined, we can now
> > > >>> discuss the
> > > >>> > > > > exact
> > > >>> > > > > > > > actions
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > we're taking to remove the circular
> dependency
> > we
> > > >>> have
> > > >>> > > > > between
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools` and `kogito-apps`. All of which
> > will
> > > >>> need to be
> > > >>> > > > > > > > addressed
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > prior to starting the release process.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. (Fabrizio - IN PROGRESS) Make sure
> > `kie-tools`
> > > >>> is on
> > > >>> > > > Java
> > > >>> > > > > > 17,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Maven
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 3.9.6, and Quarkus 3.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/960
> > > >>> > > > )
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     There's a complication here, since we
> still
> > > >>> have three
> > > >>> > > > > big
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > packages (Serverless Workflow Diagram Editor,
> > > >>> BPMN, DMN,
> > > >>> > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > SceSim
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Editors, and DashBuilder) on `kie-tools` that
> > > need
> > > >>> GWT, and
> > > >>> > > > > as
> > > >>> > > > > > > you
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > know, GWT together with Java upgrades usually
> > > >>> require some
> > > >>> > > > > > work.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > We're
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > on GWT 2.10, which should already support
> Java
> > > 17,
> > > >>> but
> > > >>> > > > we'll
> > > >>> > > > > > know
> > > >>> > > > > > > > more
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > once we try it.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. (Fabrizio - NOT YET STARTED) Make sure
> > > >>> `kie-tools` is
> > > >>> > > > > using
> > > >>> > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > latest timestamped SNAPSHOT from `kogito-*`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/965
> > > >>> > > > )
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     We have them built and published every
> > Sunday
> > > >>> EOD, so
> > > >>> > > > on
> > > >>> > > > > > > Monday
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (Feb 25th, 2024) we'll have a brand new one
> to
> > > >>> start
> > > >>> > > > working
> > > >>> > > > > > > with.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. (Thiago - IN PROGRESS) Move
> > > >>> `kogito-apps/ui-packages` to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`. (
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/833)
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     We started a couple of weeks ago, and we
> > > >>> should be ~80%
> > > >>> > > > > > done
> > > >>> > > > > > > > with
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > by now.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 4. (Fabrizio - PR SENT, but blocked by 1. and
> > 2.)
> > > >>> Move the
> > > >>> > > > > SWF
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Quarkus
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Dev UI package from `kogito-apps` to
> > `kie-tools`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/pull/2167)
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     This can only be done after 1. and 2. are
> > > >>> merged, since
> > > >>> > > > > > this
> > > >>> > > > > > > > move
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > will require `kie-tools` to be ready to build
> > > >>> packages with
> > > >>> > > > > > Java
> > > >>> > > > > > > > 17,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Maven 3.9.6, and Quarkus 3.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 5. (Thiago - NOT YET STARTED) Move the BPMN
> > > >>> Quarkus Dev UI
> > > >>> > > > > > > package
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > from `kogito-apps` to `kie-tools`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/966
> > > >>> > > > )
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     We'll follow the lead of Fabrizio's PR
> from
> > > 4.
> > > >>> That's
> > > >>> > > > > > > > essentially
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > doing exactly the same thing for the BPMN
> > Quarkus
> > > >>> Dev UI
> > > >>> > > > > > module.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 6. (Rodrigo - NOT YET STARTED) Change the
> > Jenkins
> > > >>> release
> > > >>> > > > > jobs
> > > >>> > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > include publishing both Quarkus Dev UI
> modules
> > to
> > > >>> Maven
> > > >>> > > > > central
> > > >>> > > > > > > as
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > part of the Apache release.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/964
> > > >>> > > > )
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     Should be pretty straight-forward, as we
> > > >>> already have
> > > >>> > > > > > > > experience
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > doing this for other repos.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 7. (Thiago - NOT YET STARTED) Change the
> > > ownership
> > > >>> of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `task-console`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > and `management-console` images from
> > > >>> `kogito-images` to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/963
> > > >>> > > > )
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     KIE Tools already hosts and publishes
> > several
> > > >>> images,
> > > >>> > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > since
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > the content of those images will now be
> hosted
> > at
> > > >>> > > > > `kie-tools`,
> > > >>> > > > > > we
> > > >>> > > > > > > > can
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > only host them there.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     This also means we'll get rid of the two
> > > >>> Quarkus apps
> > > >>> > > > [2]
> > > >>> > > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > wrap both consoles' static assets. We could
> be
> > > >>> wrong about
> > > >>> > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > purpose
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > of those apps, so if anyone has more
> > information,
> > > >>> please do
> > > >>> > > > > > reach
> > > >>> > > > > > > > out.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise, we'll skip the Quarkusification of
> > > >>> those static
> > > >>> > > > > > assets
> > > >>> > > > > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > we'll ship images with `httpd` directly, like
> > we
> > > >>> do for KIE
> > > >>> > > > > > > > Sandbox.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 8. (Assignee TDB - NOT YET STARTED) Deleting
> > > >>> everything
> > > >>> > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > was
> > > >>> > > > > > > > moved
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > to `kie-tools` from `kogito-apps`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/962
> > > >>> > > > )
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     That will be the point where we actually
> > get
> > > >>> rid of the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > circular
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > dependency and remove the blocker for the
> > > release.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 9. (Assignee TDB - NOT YET STARTED) Adapt
> > > >>> `kogito-examples`
> > > >>> > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > all
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > changes we mentioned above.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > (
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/961
> > > >>> > > > )
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     Kogito Examples keeps being part of the
> > > >>> `drools` and
> > > >>> > > > > > > `kogito-*`
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > stream, meaning that example modules won't be
> > > able
> > > >>> to use
> > > >>> > > > > > neither
> > > >>> > > > > > > > of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > the Quarkus Dev UIs, as `kie-tools` is
> > downstream
> > > >>> in
> > > >>> > > > relation
> > > >>> > > > > > to
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `drools` and `kogito-*` stream.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     The same would be true for Management
> > Console
> > > >>> and Task
> > > >>> > > > > > > Console
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > images, but for them, we can use the
> > `daily-dev`
> > > >>> tag we
> > > >>> > > > > publish
> > > >>> > > > > > > > daily
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > from `kie-tools@main`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > 10. (Assignee TDB - NOT YET STARTED) Create
> > some
> > > >>> example
> > > >>> > > > apps
> > > >>> > > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > use
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > the Quarkus Dev UIs directly on the
> `examples`
> > > >>> directory of
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`. (
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/959)
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >     This is to serve the same purpose of
> > packages
> > > >>> that did
> > > >>> > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > on
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-examples`, but now hosted on
> > `kie-tools`.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Pheew! That's a lot of things to do, but it
> is
> > > the
> > > >>> result
> > > >>> > > > of
> > > >>> > > > > > two
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > intense weeks assessing and planning how we
> > would
> > > >>> address
> > > >>> > > > > this
> > > >>> > > > > > > > issue
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > in a way that the Apache KIE 10 release can
> be
> > > >>> done in a
> > > >>> > > > way
> > > >>> > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > feels atomic to our users, who are ultimately
> > the
> > > >>> most
> > > >>> > > > > > important
> > > >>> > > > > > > > part
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > of the community. There's an open EPIC too at
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/967.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > I appreciate it if you reached this point,
> and
> > > >>> hope you
> > > >>> > > > feel
> > > >>> > > > > > > > welcome
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > to contributing to solving this lengthy and
> > > >>> historical
> > > >>> > > > > problem
> > > >>> > > > > > if
> > > >>> > > > > > > > you
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > feel like doing so.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > I'll personally send updates to this thread
> > every
> > > >>> week, on
> > > >>> > > > > > > Thursday
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > nights. Do not hesitate to contact me or any
> of
> > > >>> the people
> > > >>> > > > > > > > involved in
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > this effort if you have questions, or simply
> > want
> > > >>> to chat
> > > >>> > > > > about
> > > >>> > > > > > > it.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot Alex, Paulo, Fabrizio, Thiago,
> > > >>> Rodrigo, and
> > > >>> > > > > others
> > > >>> > > > > > > > that
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > somehow helped so far.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Tiago Bento
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.: You might've noticed we left Trusty out
> > of
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > > > picture
> > > >>> > > > > > for
> > > >>> > > > > > > > now.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > Thiago is conducting an investigation to
> > > >>> understand what
> > > >>> > > > > would
> > > >>> > > > > > be
> > > >>> > > > > > > > the
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > best course of action for it. As much as we
> > have
> > > >>> plans to
> > > >>> > > > > > revive
> > > >>> > > > > > > > it,
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > right now our focus has to be on getting
> Apache
> > > >>> KIE 10 out.
> > > >>> > > > > We
> > > >>> > > > > > > can
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > always rely on Git to bring it back in the
> > > future,
> > > >>> if we
> > > >>> > > > > > > ultimately
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > decide that wiping out Trusty is the best
> > > strategy
> > > >>> for this
> > > >>> > > > > > > moment.
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/pull/691
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > [2]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-apps/tree/main/task-console
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-apps/tree/main/management-console
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > >>> [email protected]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >>> [email protected]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > [email protected]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >>> [email protected]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [email protected]
> > > >>> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > [email protected]
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> > > >>> > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > >
> >
>

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