Thorsten Scherler wrote:
Here we go again.
...and that is exactly the point.
I and other do not see any reason why to do it step by step. Like Gregor
said because we can is not a reason. I still do not see any reason why
we have to do it like *you* want.
you don't have to do things as I want. If you are able to gather a
majority then go ahead.
I will certainly respect that, but I will keep stating my opinion
It would help this community if you drop your position of a blank paper
since you are the *only* one that supports it where other started the
real discussion about guidelines.
well, this is my opinion and I have argued why I think it's the right
thing how to handle it
and I do not see any reason why I should change my opinion
on this. But see above.
Another phenomenon is the lenya fork that some committer are developing
outside of the ASF.
what forks? You might want to be explicite on this.
Please read our dev and user mails carefully. There you find solprovider
talking about such efforts.
ok, so are refering to solprovider. Why don't you ask him directly? Then
he might
be able to explain himself, otherwise I am afraid he will be blamed for
something which
doesn't apply at least not from his point of view.
IMO that is very scary, but I see this as
consequence of a week community that is not able to find consensus. It
seems that we prefer to go the way of least resistance. I would like to
have a branch for the fork here in our code base. This way we all can
review the work and hopefully enhance usability.
IMO we *all* need to get a grip and try to solve this problem. We cannot
waste resources in having endless discussions or having good ideas in a
non ASF fork.
again, what fork?
see above
as said, go and ask him (or anyone else) and it will hopefully get
clearer than just implying things
which nobody can be sure of.
How can we solve this problem?
by listening to each other and not just doing stuff with high potential
of breaking things without discussing it beforehand. This is what really
destroys a community.
Many problems that currently occurred (like the broken trunk) can be
prevented with guidelines (stable trunk policy, when changes may violate
this policy then the work needs to be done in a branch and then merged
back). See the guidelines thread about a discussion on it.
see my suggestions I have made how to prevent breaking the trunk
Blocking guidelines by forcing other to do it in a particular way is
destroying a community.
I am not blocking. I am stating my opinion. As said you can resolve that
by gathering a majority.
A broken trunk is not nice but it can be fixed
by a good community. Further we explicitly state on
http://lenya.apache.org/1_4/index.html
"Warning
Apache Lenya 1.4 is still under heavy development and should not be used
for production yet."
just because it says "free speech" on a paper doesn't mean one is able
to speak freely.
You might have read the emails from various users why they already use
Lenya 1.4-dev in production ...
If people ignore this warning then they doing it on their own risk, or?
generally yes, but it's our responsibility to deal with that as good as
we can.
I'd rather not got into "parenting" ;-)
Now a "stable trunk policy" in combination with a branch policy in our
guidelines may have prevented this, don't you think?
yes, guidelines would certainly help on this, but it depends of course what
the guidelines are saying ;-)
Also I think one needs to be aware that a "democracy" can get stuck and
one shouldn't be frustrated by this, but rather one
should re-collect and then try it again from another angle.
...but not if *one* person is vetoing all the time.
I am not vetoing. I neither have the right to nor I want to.
But I will keep stating my opinion.
That is burning the
one that is proposing because she needs to re-do the whole process again
and again from different angles.
nobody said democracy is an easy thing (and the right thing in every
situation)
Also I think the Lenya community should think about what meritocracy
actually means within this community
This is part of the guidelines, therefore we first need to have/discuss
a guideline for it.
yes, but at the same time we have a "daily business" and have to deal
with it resp. are able
to extract experience from this for the guidelines. Just remind
yourself, that guidelines are being
created in general because things do not work that properly
community-wise ;-)
I am all pro to create guidelines, but I still think we need to start
with a clean paper. But it's for the majority to
decide how to handle the guidelines creation. But as an example just
think about a country where christians are the majority
and muslims a minority. So I would assume that the christians would like
to start with the bible instead a clean paper.
Do you think that is fair?
and why
Lenya exists.
I do not understand?
I thought that is http://lenya.apache.org/charter.html for.
I think this charter should be rewritten ;-)
I think the top priority is that Lenya exists because people want a CMS
(framework) which they can actually use
within the daily situation (there are some criteria attached with that
sentence of course)
If we don't find consensus on this, then we will never be
able to get along and move "beyond".
...because you say so?
no, because I think it will actually solve problems in the long-run.
One also needs to be aware of course that consensus it not the same as
majority.
And the question there is how does meritocracy fit it ...
Michi
salu2
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
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