El mié, 31-05-2006 a las 13:55 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: ... > > === > On 5/30/06, Antonio Gallardo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... > > > But none of my ideas are "good". I am not part of the development > > > effort because my ideas have been completely spurned. Every > > > suggestion I have made about Lenya has been discarded by the other > > > Committers. Most of the issues discussed on the dev list were fixed > > > or avoided in my fork because I fixed the architecture. Attempting to > > > pass that knowledge back to the 1.4 developers generated this > > > complaint. > > I've been in different Open Source communities since 1999. In this few > > years, I learned the real power of an open source community is in his > > diversity. The capacity to see the same problem from different points of > > views. The ability to find different solutions, different improvements. > > This is what make us strong. At the same time, I learned often people > > needs time to digest new ideas. I can say, it's natural, because our > > human nature is usually against changes. When an idea is not welcomed at > > the first introduction, we should prefer to give people some time to > > think about the issue and return to it later, perhaps in a couple of > > weeks the community can provide a better input or welcome the idea. > > That's what this thread is about. If enough devs are willing to > rationally consider a radical change, then my work becomes a major > contribution. If they do not like it, then it was just an aberration. >
Let us just find out. I started a revolution branch https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/lenya/branches/revolution/ > > > I did not start the fork because my suggestions are disdained. I did > > > not do it to hurt the project in any way. I needed to write code, and > > > could use a better version of Lenya. I'm scratching my own itch for a > > > few hours each week. My code and ideas are unwanted in trunk, so how > > > does my private work hurt the project? > > I just can say: Wow! I wondered where you had been. Reading this mail is > > sad to me. Not because of you, solprovider, I cannot express how much I > > appreciate your openess. It's sad because seems the whole community > > situation is already worse than we expected. The ASF is mostly about > > communities, the code is not the most important. At the same time, I > > will like to point you to Rules for Revolutionaries [1]. Please take 5 > > minutes and read it. > > Good link. The question is whether the Lenya project is willing to > have a revolution. Yeah, I am willing to have a closer look, I guess we will not be alone. > > > I would enjoy adding a branch at ASF, but why do it? It would risk > > > splitting the effort between the current 1.4 and a simpler, easier, > > > more flexible version. > > I will like to see your version. Is there a demo? > > > The programmers enjoy working on the complex > > > version. The users who would benefit from the easier version could > > > not add value to it. > > Sometimes it's not the case. ;-) > > > The fork is probably better as my private project. > > Please reconsider this. > > I do not want to keep the code private. It just did not seem likely > there was any place for it in the Lenya project. Now there is: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/lenya/branches/revolution/1.3.x/ > === > On 5/30/06, Andreas Hartmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I hope you don't feel offended by Thorsten mentioning your fork. > > I don't think it was meant as an accusation, but he rather wanted > > to substantiate the statement that the community needs a stronger sense > > of collaboration and joined efforts. Sorry, of course Thorsten can > > speak for himself :) > > Do not worry about offending me. Having my ideas ignored made me sad > that the project would lose them. It was not personal. Either the > ideas were too advanced for the other devs, or the other devs were too > focused on their current work to consider alternatives. I am still > here, right? The important message is "the community needs a stronger sense of collaboration and joined efforts". > > > > But none of my ideas are "good". I am not part of the development > > > effort because my ideas have been completely spurned. Every > > > suggestion I have made about Lenya has been discarded by the other > > > Committers. > > From my point of view, that's not generally because we dislike the > > ideas, but because they are too far away from the current state > > of Lenya. I find many of your proposals regarding the repository API > > (e.g., the naming of classes etc.) very interesting and useful. > > See Antonio's link about evolution vs. revolution. When I first > proposed those ideas, Lenya 1.4 was just started. That was the proper > time to implement the revolution. I was not a Committer yet, and did > not have the influence to force such a drastic change. This is why I wrote the initial thread we need to collaborate more on such ideas. What you describe should note happen in a healthy and strong community. > > And AFAIK your improvements of the search engine are appreciated and > > used by the community. > OT: Has someone committed the latest changes to search from my website > for 1.2.5? There have been several small but critical bug fixes. You have commit access. I think it is best for all of us if you use it. They are your contributions. > === > On 5/30/06, Michael Wechner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > The programmers enjoy working on the complex > > > version. The users who would benefit from the easier version could > > > not add value to it. The fork is probably better as my private > > > project. > > I am not sure if I understand you on this. Can you explain a bit. > > For instance I do a lot > > of things within svn.wyona.org/repos/public and I think it would be bad > > if I would upload everything > > into the Lenya SVN just because I am a committer and have the > > possibility to do so. And I think > > every committer should behave like this so it seems to me that you are > > doing the right way. > > Most of the reason to keep it private is because it is not fully > usable yet. I am not shy about releasing code on my website. Much > effort has gone into 1.4, and much of it would be discarded for the > simpler version. My version is based on Lenya 1.2.2, and much of the > code in that version could be discarded if I was not concerned with > backwards-compatibility. While there are not many LOC, my code is not > a patch; it is a major refactoring. Not because I rewrote the code, > but because there are new protocols that bypass most of the current > code. How will the other devs feel about using something that > obsoletes most of their work for the last year? Do not worry to much about the code or code changes. We are here to enhance our code and develop a community around it. Let us work together to not come to such a situation in the first place. > > === > On 5/31/06, Thorsten Scherler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > El mar, 30-05-2006 a las 02:13 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > > > I only mentioned my fork to support my ideas about improving trunk. I > > > only started the fork because I was in a high-speed car accident, my > > > brain was damaged, and I needed a project to prove my technical skills > > > were fine. > > That is perfectly alright, but having this work in the ASF rep would > > help to review your ideas and we benefit on a project base. > > Are you certain? yes! > > > > You are aware of the fork because I mentioned it in the thread about > > > handling extensions. > > Well, you mentioned it a couple of times in different threads, sometimes > > you refer to this work as lenya-1.3. > > What do you call a major revision based on 1.2 with most of the > functionality of 1.4, but simplified? I do not like > "lenya-solprovider". "lenya-1.3" makes it very clear it is > backwards-compatible with 1.2 but not 1.4. Sounds sweet to me. http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=410630&view=rev Log: Opening a revolution branch and added an initial 1.3 directory for solproviders code revolution 1.3 which is backwards compatible to 1.2 > > > But none of my ideas are "good". > > We cannot really evaluate them. > > Every idea was discussed on the MLs. They are documented on my > website under "Suggestions". There were some changes during > implementation. (The SitetreeGenerator does not sort as I originally > suggested. It is too easy to sort the results later with XSL.) Hmm, 1) I do not like code discussions too much, I work with code. 2) You are part of the lenya community. Let us keep this stuff in lenya and share the workload. 3) This community needs a stronger sense of collaboration and joined efforts > > > I am not part of the development > > > effort because my ideas have been completely spurned. Every > > > suggestion I have made about Lenya has been discarded by the other > > > Committers. Most of the issues discussed on the dev list were fixed > > > or avoided in my fork because I fixed the architecture. Attempting to > > > pass that knowledge back to the 1.4 developers generated this > > > complaint. > > This is a phenomenon that we need to resolve as community that's why I > > started this thread. > > > > It seems to me that one solution is to create a branch and check in your > > code. This way we have a pool of ideas and architecture enhancement that > > we can use. > > > > Regarding the complains of others, we need to find a more productive way > > to discuss this points in this community. Having code examples is > > helping me personally a lot more then dry discussions. > > The project can have the code. The issue is the code is not usable. > It needs the ability to edit documents, the admin screens need to be > changed, and search needs to be reconfigured. The rest of my ToDo > list is enhancements. Would the code be disdained because it is not > fully functional yet? Would it be better to wait until I complete the > basic functionality? My commit says now, please. Including this todo list and maybe a small readme to get started. > > > > I did not start the fork because my suggestions are disdained. I did > > > not do it to hurt the project in any way. I needed to write code, and > > > could use a better version of Lenya. I'm scratching my own itch for a > > > few hours each week. My code and ideas are unwanted in trunk, so how > > > does my private work hurt the project? > > > > Yes and no. IMO it hurts the project not having your code. We are > > losing valuable ideas. > > > > Let me state crystal clear (in the name of the Lenya PMC) that your code > > is wanted. Let us create a branch and see how we can reuse your work in > > the trunk. > > OK. Now? Or when it is usable? just do svn co https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/lenya/branches/revolution/1.3.x/ 1.3.x add your code and commit. > > > > I would enjoy adding a branch at ASF, but why do it? It would risk > > > splitting the effort between the current 1.4 and a simpler, easier, > > > more flexible version. > > > > Actually I do not see this risk. Since now you are the only one working > > on the version but maybe people will join you and we can enhance the > > trunk as well. > > As I wrote above, this is a major refactoring. As a project, we do > not have the resources to maintain two trunks. While my version is a > much better upgrade path for anybody using 1.2, what happens to users > of 1.4? Would someone write a migration function for them? The code > does not have JCR support yet. Adding it will be easier than the > first attempt, but it is still more work. > I reckon we will find a way to have some synergy. I like marrying code. > > > The programmers enjoy working on the complex > > > version. > > I consider myself as programmer and believe me I do *not* enjoy working > > on complex things and I would love to see a simpler version. > > What if you have spent months developing the complex version? Are you > willing to discard your work? Are you willing to offend everybody > else that contributed? If we do not use my code, I will not be > offended. If we do use it, we could offend everybody that > contributed. I do not see it as either or. This community needs a stronger sense of collaboration and joined efforts. We will find a way to make the best out of the code we have (including 1.3-revolution). If that means to drop some parts (clean up) then there is no offense to no-one. I reckon this stands for all of us. > > We also delay the next release again as everybody learns the new > architecture. It should take less than a day to learn; I am not > joking about how this version is much simpler. I would publish > documentation to make it even easier. Then we need to integrate an > editor and fix the admin screens. That will take another month at my > current rate of progress. It might be done in a week if all the devs > committed to it. The odds of that happening seem rather low. > We can organize an online sprint where the whole community can help to do it. Would be good to have PoC implementation (running basic proof of concept). > Tell me how you want to handle this. Submit now, or wait until it is usable? see above. Submit now. Thanks very much for your efforts. salu2 -- thorsten "Together we stand, divided we fall!" Hey you (Pink Floyd) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
