>- see footer for list info -<
Don't know about Dreamweaver, and agree with you about the query builder
though! But sometimes it helps you to build that very complex queries or
bits of them. Query analyzer is amazing, and there you can always improve
your code. Let's say query builder will save you to write INNER JOIN and
ON.
I've seen lot's of people who prefer to write everything using query
analyzer just because they like to use the old fashioned "select fields
from
table1 t1,table2 t2" instead of using joins which by the way are much
better.
Cheers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shearer (lists)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Coldfusion Development" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [CF-Dev] OT: Developer Vacancies
> >- see footer for list info -<
> hi Marcos,
>
> People who come for tests can use what they like to code in ( we have
> notepad, vim, eclipse, jedit, homesite+, dreamweaver, etc) - I'm really
> trying to get a feel for how they solve a problem - which is why it's
open
> book ;) It doesn't even matter if they get the questions wrong - it's
how
> they got there that counts.
>
> As for sql server. I hate query builder. It sucks ar*e. I can write a
> query much quicker by hand than I can using the query builder, but I
guess
> it's down to what you're used to ;) I have found that the way query
> builder
> messes with your sql is really pretty bad ;) A bit like dreamweaver
does
> (or maybe used to ;) )
>
>
>
>
> On 20/02/07, Marcos Placona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >- see footer for list info -<
>> That's because real life is different. I'm used to cfeclipse and code
>> completion. Not because I can't write the code, but because it really
>> helps
>> you to acquire what you need quicker. Things like write a code using
>> notepad
>> and using cfeclipse. It'll take longer in notepad if you're used to
code
>> completion, colours and code indentation, but you still can do it.
>>
>> On SQL Server sometimes it's easier to build complex queries with joins
>> using the query builder instead of using query analyzer. You will do it
>> either way, but will spend less time using the query builder.
>>
>> Cheers
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom Shearer (lists)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Coldfusion Development" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: [CF-Dev] OT: Developer Vacancies
>>
>>
>> > >- see footer for list info -<
>> > Marcos,
>> >
>> > Some good well made points ;)
>> >
>> > The first interview is about what's on offer for both parties. The
>> second
>> > really is just a technical test. With our in house test, we don't
look
>> > for
>> > one answer, like someone else said you might learn something new.
>> >
>> > WHat I've found over the years is the CF devs always seem to get
>> > unstuck
>> > on
>> > the most basic of sql questions. And some can work with the really
>> > complicated ones - that really messes with your mind when some dev
can
>> put
>> > togther complex queries with cursors, but can't even join tables...
lol
>> ;)
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> >
>> > On 20/02/07, Marcos Placona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >- see footer for list info -<
>> >> Hi Adam, I understand your point. And think it'll really depend on
the
>> >> kind
>> >> of position and the kind of interview that will happen. Sometimes
one
>> >> interview happens in two parts, where you have the first interview
>> >> with
>> >> the
>> >> manager, director etc..., and another one with the lead developer,
>> studio
>> >> manager or whatever.
>> >>
>> >> So the first part of the interview will be really to get to know the
>> guy.
>> >> The second part will be to measure his skills. This is like one
>> interview
>> >> on
>> >> Monday and another on Tuesday, but happening on the same day. So
it'll
>> >> really depend on the criteria the company adopted.
>> >>
>> >> What I'm really against is the interview with "write your code here"
>> >> tests.
>> >> I don't think tests are bad, but they should be done to test
>> >> developers
>> >> abilities (And I mean real abilities) and not to try to prove that
the
>> >> developer doesn't know what he's talking about. Do you understand
what
>> >> I'm
>> >> saying? I'm not against tests, but against tests like Adobe
>> >> Certification's
>> >> tests where you can possibly find two right answers, but only one
will
>> be
>> >> the answer they want you to choose.
>> >>
>> >> And what do you use this answers in your professional life for?
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Adam Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> To: "Coldfusion Development" <[email protected]>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:25 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: [CF-Dev] OT: Developer Vacancies
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >- see footer for list info -<
>> >> Hi Marcos
>> >> I agree regarding "writing code on bits of paper", but I disagree
with
>> >> the notion that giving a test in the first interview is stupid. I
>> >> need
>> >> to hire CF developers, and decent ones. And the best way to judge
>> >> whether they're any good is to test them. I'm not going to sit
there
>> >> saying "so, Marcos, tell me about CFCs". THAT is stupid. I can
gauge
>> >> someone's overall CF abilities by a few well-targetted
questions. To
>> >> achive the same end as a conversation would take all day.
>> >>
>> >> Personally I don't think there's any point in having any more than
one
>> >> interview anyhow. One cannot tell any more from a second interview
>> that
>> >> should not have been apparent from the first interview.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Adam
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marcos
>> >> Placona
>> >> Sent: 20 February 2007 10:04
>> >> To: Coldfusion Development
>> >> Subject: Re: [CF-Dev] OT: Developer Vacancies
>> >>
>> >> >- see footer for list info -<
>> >> You have the same opinion I have. Tests in the first interview and
>> >> with
>> >> code written in a paper are STUPID! But most of the companies still
>> >> do.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Tom Shearer (lists)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> To: "Coldfusion Development" <[email protected]>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:45 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [CF-Dev] OT: Developer Vacancies
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > >- see footer for list info -<
>> >> > I've never asked any of my interviewees to write code on paper -
>> >> > that
>> >> > would
>> >> > be stupid.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also I never ask anyone to do a test on the first interview - it's
a
>> >> waste
>> >> > of time if the interview is very very bad ;)
>> >> >
>> >> > One of the things I also do, is to sit them with my team during
the
>> >> test,
>> >> > allowing them access to the internet and access to the team if
they
>> >> need
>> >> > to
>> >> > ask anything.
>> >> >
>> >> > You wouldn't believe how much of an eye opener it is to see
>> >> > someone's
>> >> > internet history after a test :)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 20/02/07, Marcos Placona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >- see footer for list info -<
>> >> >> In my opinion it really depends. I used to give simple CF tests
in
>> >> the
>> >> >> interviews. When I say simple, I mean simple, nothing like: Solve
>> >> this
>> >> >> maze
>> >> >> and write your CF code below. That's RIDICULOUS. How do you ask
>> >> someone
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> write code in a piece of paper? My tests where all based on the
>> >> >> developer's
>> >> >> point of view, where they had to explain in a few lines (written
>> >> lines,
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> coded lines) why did they have that opinion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When it was time to test CF Skills, I'd just give'em some
multiple
>> >> >> choices
>> >> >> questions. Again, I would never ask a developer to write me some
>> code
>> >> in
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> piece of paper. If I wanted code, I would just sit the developer
in
>> a
>> >> >> workstation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It might be just me, but it feels really uncomfortable when you
go
>> >> for
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> first interview. You don't know the company very well, you don't
>> know
>> >> >> people
>> >> >> there very well, and you have all that pressure to do your best,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> suddenly someone asks you to write some code in a piece of paper.
>> >> That
>> >> >> sucks!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Marcos Placona
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Tom Shearer (lists)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> >> To: "Coldfusion Development" <[email protected]>
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:49 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [CF-Dev] OT: Developer Vacancies
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > >- see footer for list info -<
>> >> >> > Really...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I should point out that there are some blatant liars out there
;)
>> >> I've
>> >> >> had
>> >> >> > people come through the door with 5+ years of experience and
fail
>> a
>> >> >> simple
>> >> >> > test in cf... ;)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 20/02/07, Mark Woods <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >- see footer for list info -<
>> >> >> >> > great to see demand for CF developers!!!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Not if you're an employer - we gave up listing CF experience
as
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> requirement for what amount to CF dev jobs long ago.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Mark
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >>
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>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > For details on ALL mailing lists and for joining or leaving
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>> >> >> > to
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>> to
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>> >
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>> > to
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> For details on ALL mailing lists and for joining or leaving lists, go
to
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>>
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>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> For details on ALL mailing lists and for joining or leaving lists, go to
> http://list.cfdeveloper.co.uk/mailman/listinfo
>
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