On 14 Dec 06, at 4:07 PM 14 Dec 06, Rafael Schloming wrote:
Jason van Zyl wrote:
On 14 Dec 06, at 10:30 AM 14 Dec 06, Rafael Schloming wrote:
Just to clarify the building from source situation, the real
requirement is that if we were in a concrete bunker somewhere
with no connection to the outside world, and all we had was an
installed fedora box + all the source rpms for fedora, we should
be able to rebuild the entire OS.
Sure, but for Maven usage a JDK + a tarball of Maven in all
practical instances is enough for someone to get work done.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my post. I'm just trying to
explain fedora's bootstrapping requirements.
Only a passing comment on the relevance of worrying about having to
assume you were in a concrete bunker cut off from the rest of the
world is all.
Besides, even if a JDK + a tarball is enough to run maven itself,
this doesn't really solve the problem maven users face when trying
to distribute their software on fedora or any other OS for that
matter. IMHO the key problem to solve is how to make maven builds
produce software that is integrated with the target OS. Once we've
done this then integrating maven with the target OS should be
trivial since maven can build itself.
This issue is really broader than just maven. It seems the defacto
java packaging standard is to simply distribute a huge archive that
includes every dependency, quite reminiscent of windows DLL hell.
Hardly the case, and I think you are mistaken. For notorious messes
like JBoss that have ridiculous and naive classloading mechanisms you
can get rooked, but OSGi is proof that this doesn't have to be the
case. Using RPMs will not help at all in cases where classloader
hierarchies and classloaders do stupid things. In Java we don't care
if you have three archives each with a different app that contains
their own dependencies. We can run them in different VMs, and that's
our virtualization. I think rpath is evidence that there's something
wrong when you need to create a new OS image for pure isolation.
Anyway doesn't matter if you want to try some stuff I think we've
agreed we'll have a go at it. But I'm not even remotely sold on Java
being packaged up as RPMs as being a good thing.
This may well be the only option available for windows, but for
OSes like fedora where things like automatic dependency management,
upgrades, and security fixes are the norm, this practice just
doesn't scale.
Yah, I don't buy it. I don't know anyone who uses RPMs to do anything
with Java.
Jason.
--Rafael
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